When eco-science is attacked

[Eezee]

Originally Posted by Mad Machinist

I have said this before and I will say it again. Considering there are somewhere around 60 million of us that use OHV's in one way or another, what we need to do is either put together a group or one of the current groups need to morph into a super litigous group who will sue at the drop of a hat.

If everybody would pull there heads out of the arses and kick in on average a 5 spot, we would end up with a fund with over $300 million in it. That is more than all but one eco group.

Now if what I posted here could be done with no money, what could we do if we could hire wildlife biologists or other necessary people to give us some REAL facts to fight with?

Great idea, a superfund under a heirarchy like USFWDA or BRC? Isn't that what BRC is doing? Perhaps they need more funding to address more problems as they arise. ACTIVIST biologists, lawyers on a high travel budget working on every closure threat. CBD wouldn't like that would they.
My club donates to BRC every year from the funds we get at our event but I wonder how much they really need to address more issues like the ones I see on here that apparently aren't being handled well by our side.

[Stonebone]

These so called scientist know they are full of it. Animals, and fish adapt very well to their environments. The little extra sediment that may make its way into a stream from us isn't the end of the world for our little swimming friends.

[Stonebone]

O.K. I just read a couple posts up about money for a litigous group for wheelers. How about every offroad forum make it mandatory that you must donate to this group x amount per year to join.

[LYIN' KING]

Originally Posted by Stonebone

These so called scientist know they are full of it. Animals, and fish adapt very well to their environments. The little extra sediment that may make its way into a stream from us isn't the end of the world for our little swimming friends.

The majority of scientists are publish or perish. If they don't publish they lose grants and standing. To publish, they need grant funding in support of continued bogus studies . . . so they publish crap!

[Stonebone]

Originally Posted by LYIN' KING

The majority of scientists are publish or perish. If they don't publish they lose grants and standing. To publish, they need grant funding in support of continued bogus studies . . . so they publish crap!

Makes sense. Those who fund them love their crap, as long as it helps their agenda.

[yotasmob]

Originally Posted by Bebe

I'm thinking we need to prop you up with a College Fund. Cal4 used to have an education grant process. You sound like the perfect candidate

Originally Posted by randii

Agreed. Cal4 Foundation still does educational grants, check it out:
http://www.cal4wheel.com/ca4wdc-foundation

Heck, check with Rubicon Trail Foundation for internship opportunities. Ya never know until you ask!

Randii

Thanks. I will definitely look into this. There is a lot I can offer in terms of evaluating OHV impact. For example I am trained in biological EPT water quality testing. I can sample insects in several sections of a river/stream/creek and assess water quality based on the diveristy, amount and distribution of aquatic insects in a given section or area of a river. Given my training (evaluating cattle creek crossing impact) I can safely say that aside from an area where vehicles are actually crossing water, these crossings have little impact down stream and depending on the water flow type (IE: riffle, rapid, run, pool etc) could actually have virtually no impact at all. Riffles for example typically have the lowest insect diversity and abundance, therefore riffle crossings don't have much of an impact on river ecosystems as a whole. Sediment dispersal/muddy water is hardly a cause for concern. A vast majority of freshwater aquatic organisms are filter feeders and stirring up sediment only adds more potential food for many freshwater aquatic critters. I snorkel Nor Cal rivers all the time and areas where nature stirs up sediment are often filled with an abundant concentration of critters you don't often see in the more calm and clear portions of the river.

Originally Posted by LYIN' KING

The University of California at Davis and other institutions of high(er) education were started by Politics and Government.

They receive the majority of their funding for scientific research and other forms of education from private grants but do derive a small percentage (relatively speaking) of State and Federal Government funding as well. The rules governing the receipt and use of grant funding is overseen by various Government agencies.

End results of the research conducted at such institutions can sometimes end up in the hands of those who would profit or benefit from it in some way, for good or evil.

Who sits on the Board of Regents for the Universities here in CA jacking tuition fees out of reach for most? Why it is Feinstein’s husband Richard C. Blum and a whole cast of other nefarious characters!

Please don’t get me wrong, I’m VERY HAPPY this gentleman intends to use his education for good instead of evil but it’s hard to divorce politics and scientific research.

Were it not for Government (political) funding of scientific research we’d all be speaking German.
[/SIZE]

Originally Posted by LYIN' KING

The majority of scientists are publish or perish. If they don't publish they lose grants and standing. To publish, they need grant funding in support of continued bogus studies . . . so they publish crap!

Originally Posted by Stonebone

Makes sense. Those who fund them love their crap, as long as it helps their agenda.

First off, I understand where your less-than-steller attitude towards scientists comes from. For those of us involved in public land use and OHV politics the "rabid environmentalist scientist" seems to be public enemy number one. I get it. Despite your convictions, I hope you can come to see that a majority of scientists are not greed-driven, manipulators of the truth for personal gain. YES, there are plenty of corrupt scientists. As Michael Crichton once wrote - "Science is as corruptible a human activity as any other."

You see this run rampant in climate science and the CBD with the ESA. The most polticially charged segments of science will always be subject to the most corruption via grants and skewing data/lying to continue to receive these grants. I won't even get into the Board of Regents - most OG professors here long ago realized the UC system caters now to the rich not the gifted, there is a growing movement of dissent among old timer professors but that is another story.

That said, there is a lot more to scientific research than just fishing for grants and "publish or perish."

As I mentioned the ESA, CBD and the SC are cash cows for grants that promote their agenda. Outside of this however, you have an entirely different picture. When I first got here, a classmate told me that there is no money in insects that aren't economically important. I love praying mantids, but despite their home garden usefulness, are 0% economically imporant. Because they kill anything, good or bad. So any entomologist that wants to study mantids has to do so on their own time and dime.

That doesn't mean you have to sell out to cut it as a scientist. You have to study something that has economic importance. But again, this does not mean selling out. Some do. Most do not. I study entomology because I think insects are amazing creatures. I'd like to find a way to continue to fuel my thirst for knowledge while doing something to help people. The second I even think about LYING to promote my "agenda" is the second I stop being a scientist and become a con artist. Lies don't get that far anyway. As climate science has proven, eventually, someone will get around to testing your hypothesis, and if you are full of shit they won't hesitate to call you out on it. That is the beauty of science, its a constant battle to prove each other wrong. If you lie, it will eventually catch up to you. CBD and SC are two examples of how money will stall this as much as possible.

In the last few months I have found myself diving into forensic entomology. Never thought I'd go this route, but I have a knack for it. Guess what? There is literally no funding for forensic entomology research. What little funding is available is only from the FBI, DOJ, etc. There is no room for BS. My professors are some insanely smart people, but they accept that what they study does not offer lots of funding opportunities. They do it because they like what they do, and want to help solve crimes. You might be amazed to discover this LYIN KING, but the majority of scientists fit this bill. They didn't become scientists for the lie-money, they became scientists because they love what they do regardless of funding.

Scientists lose more standing publishing BS than they do publishing BS for funding. The CBD/SC is not a realistic representation of the scientific community as a whole. I turned down an internship this summer studying OHV noise on the Sage Grouse this summer. Guess who the study was sponsored by? CBD. We have to better integrate the OHV community and the scientific community and close the gap between how we are perceived and what we really are.

[LYIN' KING]

Originally Posted by yotasmob

First off, I understand where your less-than-steller attitude towards scientists comes from.

Does this understanding also include knowledge that I worked nearly two decades of with these types in an institution of higher education?

While I found the majority of them brilliant dedicated people, most lacked common sense!

I love science and have since watching the pictures being sent back from our first spacecraft on the moon. When I saw Armstrong walk there a few years later I was even more enthralled.

Chase your dreams; put your hard earned knowledge to work for good and what you believe in.

Just try not to fall victim to whatever caused the otherwise brilliant science instructors I worked around an inability to find their ass with both hands.

[yotasmob]

Originally Posted by LYIN' KING

Does this understanding also include knowledge that I worked nearly two decades of with these types in an institution of higher education?

While I found the majority of them brilliant dedicated people, most lacked common sense!

I love science and have since watching the pictures being sent back from our first spacecraft on the moon. When I saw Armstrong walk there a few years later I was even more enthralled.

Chase your dreams; put your hard earned knowledge to work for good and what you believe in.

Just try not to fall victim to whatever caused the otherwise brilliant science instructors I worked around an inability to find their ass with both hands.

I assumed you must have spent time in/around institutions based on many of your replies. I have seen the lack of common sense first hand, however I try and keep an open mind about the people I work with. I disagree with many of them, and there are definitely people that can't find their ass with both hands.

You don't have to worry about me. I care about truth and knowledge. In my eyes, OHV use is about the least impactful human activity there is. If I can lend myself to prove this in future land use battles, I will be happy. I know that people like us spend more time, money, and labor keeping nature pristine than 99% of so called environmentalists. There aren't many 4 wheeling scientists so I have a lot of ground to cover on both ends of the spectrum.

[LYIN' KING]

Originally Posted by yotasmob

You don't have to worry about me. I care about truth and knowledge. There aren't many 4 wheeling scientists so I have a lot of ground to cover on both ends of the spectrum.

Go get 'em man!!!

[Stonebone]

Originally Posted by yotasmob

You don't have to worry about me. I care about truth and knowledge. In my eyes, OHV use is about the least impactful human activity there is. If I can lend myself to prove this in future land use battles, I will be happy. I know that people like us spend more time, money, and labor keeping nature pristine than 99% of so called environmentalists. There aren't many 4 wheeling scientists so I have a lot of ground to cover on both ends of the spectrum.

A scientist wheeler? We need more like you on our side... You must be a very independent thinker.

[Mad Machinist]

Originally Posted by yotasmob

I assumed you must have spent time in/around institutions based on many of your replies. I have seen the lack of common sense first hand, however I try and keep an open mind about the people I work with. I disagree with many of them, and there are definitely people that can't find their ass with both hands.

You don't have to worry about me. I care about truth and knowledge. In my eyes, OHV use is about the least impactful human activity there is. If I can lend myself to prove this in future land use battles, I will be happy. I know that people like us spend more time, money, and labor keeping nature pristine than 99% of so called environmentalists. There aren't many 4 wheeling scientists so I have a lot of ground to cover on both ends of the spectrum.

Does this mean I get to take credit for bringing a scientist in on our side?

Just kidding. But I think I just heard a few heads pop in Tucson.

[LYIN' KING]

Originally Posted by Mad Machinist

Does this mean I get to take credit for bringing a scientist in on our side?

Just kidding. But I think I just heard a few heads pop in Tucson.

He needs to be cloned so there are a few thousand of him, then we need to get them all into "the system"!! It may draw some suspicion if more than one shows up at a job interview or site test but they can just claim they're twins . . .

[yotasmob]

Originally Posted by Stonebone

A scientist wheeler? We need more like you on our side... You must be a very independent thinker.

I don't have much tolerance for BS. I keep an open mind.

Originally Posted by Mad Machinist

Does this mean I get to take credit for bringing a scientist in on our side?

Just kidding. But I think I just heard a few heads pop in Tucson.

Originally Posted by LYIN' KING

He needs to be cloned so there are a few thousand of him, then we need to get them all into "the system"!! It may draw some suspicion if more than one shows up at a job interview or site test but they can just claim they're twins . . .

There are actually more like me than you may realize. Unfortunately most scientists don't have time for politics (unless they are paid by them). I try and find a balance between it all. As one of my professors told me once... "I stopped giving a $*%@ about politics when JFK got shot. That was it - I was done and haven't looked back."

That same professor just submited his assesment that OHV's have little/no impact on insect populations at Glamis for some environmental study. He mentioned to me what a stand-up guy the CA4WDC board member was that he worked with down there. His opinion was that as long as land is set aside for conservation and recreation that the two should be able to coexist fine.

Same guy wants me to take him to the Rubicon.

[Mad Machinist]

The thing of it is, these people need to stand up and get the truth out. This fight is as much about the freedom for them to do their thing as it is about us doing our thing.

In the scientific world, just look at what is done to scientists go against the status quo. Ridiculed, run out, and sometomes even worse. Never used to be that way.

[yotasmob]

Originally Posted by Mad Machinist

The thing of it is, these people need to stand up and get the truth out. This fight is as much about the freedom for them to do their thing as it is about us doing our thing.

In the scientific world, just look at what is done to scientists go against the status quo. Ridiculed, run out, and sometomes even worse. Never used to be that way.

I agree. That is perhaps where I come in. I am already "controversal" if you will among some of my peers for being adamantly spoken against the "theory" of anthropogenic climate change and a strong critic of the ESA and the need to revise it.

I think politics and science have seperated (or grown too close) for the worse unfortunately. But again it is why the OHV community needs to bring more scientists into the picture in terms of fighting these land closures and lawsuits. Having been involved with land use battles for close to ten years now I am familiar with the enemy's arsenal and I am confident sound science will squash them every time.

I've been thinking about the "meadow" closures in El Dorado county a lot lately. Honestly, I can't think of a way that a scientist will be able to prove that those roads have ANY impact on the meadows (ambiguously vague term) they dissect. I'll be the first to pick that one to pieces once they actually try and provide some evidence.

[Brewster2]

Originally Posted by yotasmob

I've been thinking about the "meadow" closures in El Dorado county a lot lately. Honestly, I can't think of a way that a scientist will be able to prove that those roads have ANY impact on the meadows (ambiguously vague term) they dissect. I'll be the first to pick that one to pieces once they actually try and provide some evidence.

Why wait?? Maybe you could HELP the FS do their studies on the closed routes.

Ride on
Brewster