Property Owners and RS2477

[rock-rod]

Originally Posted by BlazerZR2

These horses that you are sitting on do damage to the land. I backpack a great deal and the trails that allow horses the trails are erroded and foregin plants are all over the place due to the horse shit that you, err I mean your horses spew all over the ground. Yet I have never started the colilition against horse shit because everyone has a right to be on this land. You sir are extreemly selfish and have no reguard for others rights.

Excellent point by a true ecologist. I doubt Bat Shit even knows about invader species of flora.


Public or private land, it does not make a difference. The hore eat grains/hay that is trucked in from wherever, and the resulting feces deposited on the ground by the horse propagates an invader plant species that crowds out the indigineous species. Thanks for ruining Colorado you ass.

[elusiv]

but Mr. Bat Poo..
How do you justify buying land for the specific reason of closing certian existing recreational areas?
THAT is why we are upset.
A very few well-heeled folks can effectively assert their agenda with a huge impact on the "public" lands. Every trail that is closed increases traffic on the remaining open areas.
If you REALLY want to make a compromise that folks will agree to.. here it is.

1. get in contact with a local 4x4 group that is well established and has level-headed folks.
2. establish THAT club as the ONLY folks that can take groups into the area. This doesn't have to be every day. It can be on days you designate.
3. If things happen that you dont like (folks littering, leaving the trail, whatever) you have people that you can hold accountable to fix the problem. There will be NO problems. ANY club I have ever been a part of would be fantastic wards of the trail in order to keep the trail open.

[samuraijack]

Originally Posted by elusiv

but Mr. Bat Poo..
How do you justify buying land for the specific reason of closing certian existing recreational areas?
THAT is why we are upset.
A very few well-heeled folks can effectively assert their agenda with a huge impact on the "public" lands. Every trail that is closed increases traffic on the remaining open areas.
If you REALLY want to make a compromise that folks will agree to.. here it is.

1. get in contact with a local 4x4 group that is well established and has level-headed folks.
2. establish THAT club as the ONLY folks that can take groups into the area. This doesn't have to be every day. It can be on days you designate.
3. If things happen that you dont like (folks littering, leaving the trail, whatever) you have people that you can hold accountable to fix the problem. There will be NO problems. ANY club I have ever been a part of would be fantastic wards of the trail in order to keep the trail open.

It's been 12 hours Mark, how come no response... My guess is that he has hit the nail on the head on this one, and though Bat Fart has been attempting to be even-handed in his comments on this thread, to answer would truely expose him and his motives.

[Bat Guano]

Originally Posted by elusiv

How do you justify buying land for the specific reason of closing certian existing recreational areas?

No landowner has to justify excluding the use of his private property to other people. For any reason. Period. That's why it is called private property. The sooner you people understand this concept, the sooner your conflicts with landowners will end.

[Bat Guano]

Originally Posted by samuraijack

It's been 12 hours Mark, how come no response... My guess is that he has hit the nail on the head on this one, and though Bat Fart has been attempting to be even-handed in his comments on this thread, to answer would truely expose him and his motives.

And what do you think those motives are? Environmental protection? Private property rights? Please share your theory.

[Bat Guano]

Originally Posted by rock-rod

Public or private land, it does not make a difference. The hore eat grains/hay that is trucked in from wherever, and the resulting feces deposited on the ground by the horse propagates an invader plant species that crowds out the indigineous species. Thanks for ruining Colorado you ass.

I never cease to be amazed with the ideas you people come up with. Have you ever been out of the suburbs? Have you ever even been to a working ranch or is this just something you saw on TV?

[elusiv]

Actually I am still waiting for answers to both my points.
point 1:
how can you justify BUYING land ONLY to close popular trails.. I did not mention land that you own, or land that you bought to develop or land that you bought for ANY REASON OTHER THAN TO CLOSE THE TRAILS!
point 2:
you asked for an amicable solution. This was actually the excuse you used to begin this entire thread. I presented one.

[Bat Guano]

Originally Posted by elusiv

Actually I am still waiting for answers to both my points.
point 1:
how can you justify BUYING land ONLY to close popular trails.. I did not mention land that you own, or land that you bought to develop or land that you bought for ANY REASON OTHER THAN TO CLOSE THE TRAILS!
point 2:
you asked for an amicable solution. This was actually the excuse you used to begin this entire thread. I presented one.

I guess question number 1 is a hypothetical question then. I guess it would depend on the situation. If, for example, people were dumping oil into a stream and the oil slick was flowing onto your ranch, it would be justification. Or if people were driving up steep hills and creating erosion that was washing sediment into your stream it would be justification. Or if they were using that "popular trail" as a back way in to your meadows and pastures, it would be justification.

Amicable solution: The first step is for the national and local offroad groups to issue policy statements that acknowledge the rights of landowners to close their property to off-road recreation. Untill private property is officially, formally, and universally acknowledged and respected by the 4x4 groups, there can be no amicable solution.

[elusiv]

actuall, point 1 was not hypothetical. IT HAS happened and not to prevent folks from doing things damaging to anyones land.. it was done to prevent folks from accessing PUBLIC lands. no oter reason. only to prevent access to PUBLIC land.

point2 national and local groups HAVE policy in place to prevent trespassing.
heres your fist post on this thread
"Can anybody suggest a compromise that might help keep these roads open but keep landowners and ranchers happy?"
and heres your last
"Untill private property is officially, formally, and universally acknowledged and respected by the 4x4 groups, there can be no amicable solution"

here is where you are just not informed, or you refuse to see the truth. There is no 4x4 organization in the US that doesn't acknowledge or respect private land. Do not confuse high school vandals with responsible organizations.
actually.. with your statement... since national and local "off-road" groups DO acknowledge rights of landowners, then there CAN be an amocable solution....
and... whats wrong with my scenerio? surely there are SOME responsible clubs in your area?

[rock-rod]

Originally Posted by Bat Guano

I never cease to be amazed with the ideas you people come up with. Have you ever been out of the suburbs? Have you ever even been to a working ranch or is this just something you saw on TV?

It's a proven fact you dumb-ass.

And yes, I have been 'out of the suburbs'. Working ranch? Um, yes- worked on one for 5 years while in college studying for my degree in Environmental Biology. Some courses include field ecology and soils. I think I know something about this. How about you? You remind me of one of those ambulance chaser type trial lawyers. I bet you voted for Kerry/Edwards

[landusepbb]

I can't believe you guys are still arguing with this moron, I more or less gave up on him around a year ago.

[Bat Guano]

Originally Posted by rock-rod

Working ranch? Um, yes- worked on one for 5 years while in college studying for my degree in Environmental Biology. Some courses include field ecology and soils. I think I know something about this.

So you're a college kid straight out of the suburbs and majoring in Environmental Biologyand you show up at a ranch? Did you tell the foreman that story about how he's ruining Colorado by riding his horse? I'm sure you told him it MUST be true because you learned it from one of your perfessers. I bet the foreman quit riding his horse and bought an ATV right then!! I'm sure he thought you know a lot about it, being that you were from the University and all.

[Bat Guano]

Originally Posted by elusiv

actuall, point 1 was not hypothetical. IT HAS happened and not to prevent folks from doing things damaging to anyones land.. it was done to prevent folks from accessing PUBLIC lands. no oter reason. only to prevent access to PUBLIC land.

No landowner is obligated to allow his private property to be used for access to public land unless there is an easement or a right-of-way. Landowners have the right to block access to there land for whatever reason they want. It is PRIVATE property we are talking about. It doesn’t matter what you think the motivation of a landowner is, if you want to use his land for access to something on the other side, then you either need to get permission, or you need to purchase an easement or a right-of-way. Maybe he will give you permission, but then you have to play by his rules, which might be that you have to walk or ride a horse. If you don’t like private property rights, you can write to your Congressman and try to get a Constitutional Amendment to repeal Amendment 5 of the Bill of Rights.

Originally Posted by elusiv

point2 national and local groups HAVE policy in place to prevent trespassing.

No, they do not. They say words but they don’t follow it up with action. I will believe there is a policy when I see club members kicked out for breaking the rules, and clubs losing their charters for tolerating rule-breakers.

Originally Posted by elusiv

heres your fist post on this thread
"Can anybody suggest a compromise that might help keep these roads open but keep landowners and ranchers happy?"
and heres your last
"Untill private property is officially, formally, and universally acknowledged and respected by the 4x4 groups, there can be no amicable solution"

here is where you are just not informed, or you refuse to see the truth. There is no 4x4 organization in the US that doesn't acknowledge or respect private land. Do not confuse high school vandals with responsible organizations.
actually.. with your statement... since national and local "off-road" groups DO acknowledge rights of landowners, then there CAN be an amocable solution....
and... whats wrong with my scenerio? surely there are SOME responsible clubs in your area?

It is very hard to tell the difference between high school vandals and middle aged vandals who belong to jeep clubs and are pissed off at landowners.

O.K. I challenge you to get an officer of the Mile-Hi Jeep Club, Trailridge Runners 4WD Club, COHVCO, Blue Ribbon Coalition, or United 4WD Club to come on this forum and admit that Barking Dog Trail is private property, and state that from now on they will respect and stand up for the private property rights of the owners, and promise to kick out the next member who violates the policy against trespassing there.

[BlazerZR2]

So you came here pretending to be someone else. I called you out. You ask about compromise between people who enjoy to 4 wheeling as a hobby and landowners such as yourself. Yet you had no intentions of coming to a solution that will appease people on both sides of the issue. You come here push your bullshit agenda. And for what? I don’t even think you know the answer to that. You have now admitted your whole motivation for trying to stop access through your property on a public road. Because an “oil slick” in “your” stream. Oil slick my ass. Your property my ass. Maybe you should just chop down a few hundred trees to block access? You have offered no solutions at all. You are a piece of shit. You should take your hippie, tree hugging, eco-nazi family and stay in New Mexico.

P.S. FUCK YOU

[Dog House]

Originally Posted by Bat Guano

O.K. I challenge you to get an officer of the Mile-Hi Jeep Club, Trailridge Runners 4WD Club, COHVCO, Blue Ribbon Coalition, or United 4WD Club to come on this forum and admit that Barking Dog Trail is private property, and state that from now on they will respect and stand up for the private property rights of the owners, and promise to kick out the next member who violates the policy against trespassing there.

WOW Mark! Your new board name really seems to fit you. In fact I here by dub thee, by the power vested in me, by all those who posess a measurable degree of intelligence, as the king of rationalization. I mean damn man you can rationalize with the best of 'em!

Now let's visit your suggestion. Shall we? I mean seriously Mr. Boslough. Why on God' green earth, would any of the folks you referenced in your previous attempt at diversion, remotely entertain your sugestion/challenge to support your intolerant view points?

The simple fact of the matter is that you are trying to close down an existing "row" "unmaintained county road" "right of way" period. Even here in Ecofreakinfornia Barking Dog road would have to sit idle for seven years before some one like, well for lack of a better description, you, would be able to legally behave such as you have.

You've cut down healthy, living flourishing trees in your zeal to enforce your control issues, and let's be clear here sir. They are most certainly freudian control issues if ever they've been publicly demonstrated, so let's not go there. Unless you'd care to that is. So who's the environmental destroyer

You have dug ditches in the road to prevent historically established mechanized travel on or about the edge of your property which has in the past, demonstrated a well established right of way as defined per revised statuate 2477.

Mark you profess to be educated. I mean hell man ya work at a gubberment lab for crying out loud! Why do you continue your feeble attempts at insulting our intelligence? Should we/I not be offended here? If not please elaborate as to why!

Knobby, Bat Guano, Mr. Boslough, Mark, you've got no credibility here. I'm sorry man, but you're just not believeable.

My best regards to you sir.

Happy Holidays.

Spelling errors included for texture.

[Bat Guano]

Originally Posted by BlazerZR2

So you came here pretending to be someone else. I called you out. You ask about compromise between people who enjoy to 4 wheeling as a hobby and landowners such as yourself. Yet you had no intentions of coming to a solution that will appease people on both sides of the issue. You come here push your bullshit agenda. And for what? I don’t even think you know the answer to that. You have now admitted your whole motivation for trying to stop access through your property on a public road. Because an “oil slick” in “your” stream. Oil slick my ass. Your property my ass. Maybe you should just chop down a few hundred trees to block access? You have offered no solutions at all. You are a piece of shit. You should take your hippie, tree hugging, eco-nazi family and stay in New Mexico.

P.S. FUCK YOU

This seems to be fairly representitive of the off-road establishment. You do appear to be a typical four-wheeler. Perhaps you are an officer of one of those "responsible" clubs pretending to be BlazerZR2.

I think this is why ranchers and other traditional landowners are revoking permisson all over the west to their private roads and footpaths like Barking Dog Trail.

Thank you for being frank and honest about your feelings regarding private property rights. I can assure you that if you attempt to take a vehicle on Barking Dog Trail you will be arrested and charged with criminal trespass.

[Bat Guano]

Originally Posted by Dog House

ve got no credibility here. I'm sorry man, but you're just not believeable.

My best regards to you sir.

Happy Holidays.

Spelling errors included for texture.

That's o.k. I don't care what you believe as long as you stay off private property when you are not invited. Motorized users of Barking Dog Trail will be charged with criminal trespass, I can assure you. That's the only thing people need to understand that this juncture.

Happy Holiday's yourself

[BlazerZR2]

Originally Posted by Bat Guano

Thank you for being frank and honest about your feelings regarding private property rights. I can assure you that if you attempt to take a vehicle on Barking Dog Trail you will be arrested and charged with criminal trespass.

I think a nice walk or small backpacking trip will suffice. Maybe Ill have to plan a snowshoeing trip. You have assumed that I am a typical offroad enthusiast. You dont even know what the typical 4wheeler is. You seem to only focus on the minority that does not respect the sport as well as the areas that we enjoy. But you are the typical eco-nazi that I had you made out to be. Ill be sure to enjoy that "footpath" as you call it. Its just as enjoyable with out my vehicle.

[rticul8_94yj]

It has been my opinion in life that no matter what hobby or interest you have in life there will always be a small % of people that give that hobby or interest a bad name. In the sport or interest of 4 wheeling there will always be a % of people that give us a bad name. This stands true for the environmentalist also. It would seem to me that Mr. Bat turd is one of the small % that give the majority of environmentalist a bad name. It seem to me that no matter what suggestions we give and ideas we come up with he will never be happy until he is left ALONE on his PRIVATE property to die like a hermit. Well Mr. Bat Turd I will leave you alone on your Private property if you do me a favor and STOP trespassing on OUR website. I'm sure you will come up with some long-winded reply to the post and twist my words around to make it look like I don't care about the environment. That’s fine if you do I'm not going to let you live rent free in this kids skull. Just do us all a big favor don't go away mad just GO AWAY.

[rock-rod]

Originally Posted by Bat Guano

So you're a college kid straight out of the suburbs and majoring in Environmental Biology and you show up at a ranch? Did you tell the foreman that story about how he's ruining Colorado by riding his horse? I'm sure you told him it MUST be true because you learned it from one of your professors. I bet the foreman quit riding his horse and bought an ATV right then!! I'm sure he thought you know a lot about it, being that you were from the University and all.

Nice ass-sumption
You could be further from the truth. Funny how you take a serious issue, one that you obviously can't understand, and turn it into a joke for your amusement.


Brad, you are right. This guy truly is an assclown.

[Electric Sheep]

Everyday, I keep reading this thread. And everyday, I'm disappointed that people are falling for this troll's antics.

<sigh>

[Bat Guano]

Originally Posted by rock-rod

You could be further from the truth. Funny how you take a serious issue, one that you obviously can't understand, and turn it into a joke for your amusement.

Oh come on. I think anyone would see the humor in a college kid going to a working ranch and telling the cowboys about how their horses do more damage than off-road vehicles. You might think it is serious, but most people get the joke.

[Bat Guano]

Originally Posted by rticul8_94yj

Well Mr. Bat Turd I will leave you alone on your Private property if you do me a favor and STOP trespassing on OUR website. I'm sure you will come up with some long-winded reply to the post and twist my words around to make it look like I don't care about the environment. That’s fine if you do I'm not going to let you live rent free in this kids skull. Just do us all a big favor don't go away mad just GO AWAY.

That’s O.K. Are you the owner of this web site? If you are the owner I will leave. Or if you can get the person who IS the owner to tell me to leave I will. But if I am allowed to express my opinion here, I would prefer to stay. Please let me know.

[Bat Guano]

Originally Posted by BlazerZR2

I think a nice walk or small backpacking trip will suffice. Maybe Ill have to plan a snowshoeing trip. You have assumed that I am a typical offroad enthusiast. You dont even know what the typical 4wheeler is. You seem to only focus on the minority that does not respect the sport as well as the areas that we enjoy. But you are the typical eco-nazi that I had you made out to be. Ill be sure to enjoy that "footpath" as you call it. Its just as enjoyable with out my vehicle.

When people get angry with landowners for not allowing motorized recreation on private property, I assume they are typical offroad enthusiasts. Maybe that is just a very vocal minority that I tend to hear from. Sorry to put you in that category, but you seemed upset about owners who assert their private property rights in this way. When you say it is just as enjoyable without your vehicle I realize that you are a reasonable person, and it gives me hope that there is room for mutual understanding between landowners and four-wheelers after all. I think if you talk to landowners, you will find that we are not all eco-nazis. But most of us do end to be very protective of our investment and try to be good stewards of the land (even though some of us like to ride those noxious-weed spewing horses around our land)!

As for Barking Dog Trail, I’m not sure if there is enough snow yet for good snowshoeing. We got about 14” last week so it’s pretty well covered but spotty in places. The creek is frozen over now, and it gets real slick along that section where the trail follows the creek bed. You might want to wait for the next big storm. My only request is that when you are visiting as a guest on private property, you obey the rules (e.g. no fires, no camping, stay on the main pathway, etc. ). If you forget, the rules are posted next to the footpath.

[vb]

your not going to get any off those clubs to say that barking dog is not public. it is a public road and you know it and the person that you bought the property from also told you that it was public either by presciptive easment or by 2477. in fact comissioner stewart knows full well since he was the man doing the work for your privios owner to be able to build a bridge over the saint vrain for a private road to a site that they wanted to build on.


the judges never ever said that the road is not public. what they said was that they did not want to discuss it since they (the judge) had no way to figure out how the public could be represented.


you are still a coward and a lier and show me this "working" ranch that you have there! you really take the cake.

but i do thank you. since your stand worked for you. i can take the exact same stand on my road and prevent the fs or county from ever concidering closing it since my road was built by my intryman as well plus lots more good and cool stuff. this aint over by a longshot dude. itll come back around perty quick and i can still go move your illegal obstructions at any time and i will not be breaking any laws.

see ya soon little man!