Vernal Ut

[Hot dog]

Well it has happened. We lost about over 200,000 acers of trails. All the trails out here were like Moab. Some of you that did compitions in the late 90s and earlie 2000s had sean the area.

Well not it is the the point of wilderness. I have tried to get the contact info to e-mail them but no go. so here is the phone number and fax.

Vernal Field Office
Main: (435) 781-4400
Fax: (435) 781-4410

Lets do the Pirate thing and shut there phones down.
I spent three years mapping trails and roads. They put a new guy in and every map is gone.

He told me that only county roads are open. That means one dirt road on a 30 mile area. If someone finds the info to contact e-mail please post it up

[Bebe]

Exact same thing they did here in the Folsom District.

County roads open only.

Someone has got to stop the BLM.

[Bebe]

Vernal Field Office
170 South 500 East
Vernal, UT 84078
Field Manager: vacant
Phone: (435) 781-4400
Fax: (435) 781-4410
utvnmail@blm.gov

[Kurtuleas]

Should we gear up the Pirate letter generator for this one?

[Bebe]

Already done, ROD.

[Bebe]

Hey HotDog, was BRC in this with you guys? I'm pretty sure I remember an action alert coming out, what did they say?

[Hot dog]

I saw it there but heard nothing back. There is not alot of people out here that drive our kind of rigs. They mainly rin trail maggots (ATVs)

We had some really fun trails. Now they will be gone. I was able to save one trail.

Thanks for the help guys and gals, Lets fill up that e-mail

[navy-jeepster]

One thing we will need to know, is if you or others at least sent in letters.
If you kept copies, that would be good, as that would provide the proof that you sent them in, and have standing in any litigation that may be needed.

If you have electronic copies, please send them to me at landuse@ufwda.org

I will also talk to our legal representative to see what we can do to attempt to reopen any of these trails.

Todd

[Bebe]

And, if you did write letters, (I'm pretty sure I did) There is always an appeal. Did you file an appeal?

[Bebe]

Nope...link to comments;

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medial...tion%20Log.pdf

[fermentor]

Originally Posted by Bebe

Nope...link to comments;

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medial...tion%20Log.pdf

Yikes! Grazing, oil, gas and Indian interests were fertile.

[scoutabout]

Originally Posted by Hot dog

Well it has happened. We lost about over 200,000 acers of trails. All the trails out here were like Moab. Some of you that did compitions in the late 90s and earlie 2000s had sean the area.

Well not it is the the point of wilderness. I have tried to get the contact info to e-mail them but no go. so here is the phone number and fax.

Vernal Field Office
Main: (435) 781-4400
Fax: (435) 781-4410

Lets do the Pirate thing and shut there phones down.
I spent three years mapping trails and roads. They put a new guy in and every map is gone.

He told me that only county roads are open. That means one dirt road on a 30 mile area. If someone finds the info to contact e-mail please post it up

We're going through similar circumstances with the Moab and Price offices. Utah 4 Wheel Drive Association has been looking for someone active in northeast Utah and would appreciate having your input on these issues. Send me the data you've logged and submitted so we can add it to our database of "lost" trails that we'll be sending to the BLM. We're gearing up to make a play on this issue, but there's not a lot to do until we can get all the documentation together.

Email me your data at steve at u4wda.org.

[tacoma73]

PM's, boys. PM's.

Back to topic, what in the way of help would be useful to you?


Also, I find it curious that oil use is not incompatible with the BLM's worldview, while recreational use IS. Oil rigs, as you and I know very well, cause significant CHANGE to the landscape--- soil compaction from the roadbase, dust issues, etc etc etc. I'm not against that, but it seems hypocritical to allow that while excluding recreation.

[cruiseroutfit]

There are seemingly two different issues that need to be addressed here, I will start with the most important, the Vernal RMP.

Vernal RMP
The Vernal RMP has been in preparation since 2001. They begain seeking public input in 2005 during their info gathering stage. The official 90 day comment period on their proposed alternatives ended winter of 2007 and the final RMP became official Record this last fall (2008). So as you can see we are about two years behind the curve for starting this process.

So, its of my opinion that a general letter campaign is not going to do anything and could likely just irritate the BLM officials. Wait until an actual proposal is on the desk of the BLM and then start the war dialer

Any trails that need to be re-opened are going to have to go through a special process which will include re-adding them to the Travel Management Plan and amending them to the RMP. This will need to be done with a professional approach, with a proposal submitted to the BLM in accordance to their policies for new additions (I don't know how the process works for these new RMP's and the BLM might not either. Follow the Coyote Canyon -Moab process and work it the same direction Jeff Stevens has taken with that). After a proposal has been submitted for the lost trails (which the BLM will want GIS data, route history and likely EIS information for each of the routes, studies that were done during the initial inventory (2001-2005). Hot dog, your going to need to take lead on this. Get with the BLM office out there and see what their process is. Give Jeff Stevens (he is here on PBB I'm sure) a ring and see what he learned on adding trails to the system. Formulate a proposal, submit it and then and only then would I personally recommend a letter/call campaign in support of the proposal. Calling or emailing now to voice support for a proposal that isn't even on the table isn't likely to do much??

Why didn't U4WDA hammer the Vernal RMP like we did the other RMP's? Simple, we didn't have a reliable person working in those areas with local ground knowledge. We had MFFW and RR4W in Moab, CC4x4C in Kanab, King Crawlers in the Price area and a lot of personal experience in all of them. However at the time we had nothing coming in for the Vernal areas. If you had trail data and trail inventories for trails that were NOT on their Alternatives at the time, we never saw it and furthermore even if we did we needed someone to pickup the ball and run with it rather than throw a long distance pass. We did ask!

I personally spend hundreds of hours prepping for the RMP's I worked on (Moab, Monticello and RMP), this wasn't assigned by U4, hell I wasn't even the Landuse Officer, I just knew the area and wanted to pass that off to other off-road enthusiasts. I think we rocked the scene on these RMP's, they were broadcasted on dozens of forums, we wrote suggested talking points accompanied by maps, sample comments, etc. We even hosted a handful of "letter writing parties" where users could just show up and put their information on paper. U4WDA supplied the pens, paper, envelopes and stamps. Am I sorry that U4WDA couldn't have done the same for all of the RMP's absolutely, do I take it personal, absolutely not. I did the best I could, spent a ton of time doing it and felt we had an impact in those cases.



Regarding RME/U4 & Me:
You were NOT banned from RME for anything remotely related to the Vernal trails, you were banned for your rude comments relating to the Mall Shooting back east as I recall a well as your "I would have shot him for just being him" comments regarding the police brutality lawsuit and the UHP taser incident. Additionally you were banned because you have continued to be misleading about who you are through the use of over 10 different usernames on RME. I don't keep track of them all but the RME moderators did at one time track your IP. Additionally you personally sent me an PM from one of your usernames asking me info about your other username, all from the same IP address.

I don't have personal issues with you, I find your username games interesting to say the least , but this has nothing to do with the owners/operators of RME nor the U4WDA. We've even worked side by side at service projects in the past (5MP Cleanup), I know you want to keep trails open, we just disagree on some of your approach. As far as U4 is concerned, I haven't even been involved for 6 months, so I don't know how how they even correlate. Many (most) of the U4WDA board members are one one of the forums you have been on (ie U4x4C or RME) so they are all pretty well in the know regarding your situation without any outside influence. Ask them yourself, if you honestly think I spend anytime discussing you with anyone, your wrong. In the U4x4C it was you and Josh who were contacting me, well about you... if you recall it was you that later admitted to whom you were

So, rather than quibble about who, why, what... Why don't you send Steve J. all the mapped information that you have and have sent on to the BLM. How was it submitted? GPS tracklogs? Maps? A list of trails would be the priority, followed with details on each trail.

Steve J, when you do get this information send it my way ASAP, I want to compare it against the bibles (the 3" thick Vernal RMP Alternative and EIS guides) that we have for the Vernal area. Likely it will address many of the trails and why they were closed. While were are a couple of years late in the game on this RMP there is still something that can be done!

[scoutabout]

Originally Posted by cruiseroutfit

Steve J, when you do get this information send it my way ASAP, I want to compare it against the bibles (the 3" thick Vernal RMP Alternative and EIS guides) that we have for the Vernal area. Likely it will address many of the trails and why they were closed. While were are a couple of years late in the game on this RMP there is still something that can be done!

It certainly would be helpful to have Mark's data and compare it to the new travel map and any changes as of the new RMP. On the ground intel and experience is always hard to come by and as has been mentioned, we haven't had anyone active in the Vernal area to provide such information so that some action (or support) could be organized.

Give us some info on who you've been working with and what info you have as well as what has been submitted. I don't have a BLM contact in Vernal. You never know, it's possible that someone we have a close relationship with in another field office might be best friends with someone (possibly your contact) in the Vernal office. It's a small community, and such cross relationships have been helpful in the past.

Post up the info here, and let's see if we can do something in Vernal.

[cruiseroutfit]

I'm browsing through the Vernal RMP documents, rather than focus on the drama I figure we can actually gain some ground on this.

I didn't realize so many of the areas were open to cross-country travel out that way. Again though I have very little experience out that way so I'm not even remotely familiar with the majority of the 4x4 routes with the exception of the Vernal UROC site where we completed and the northern end of Nine-Mile Canyon, the rest is all a mystery to me.

Hot dog, how many of the closed trails were open and existing in 2001 when the route inventory started? This is kind've a fundemental part of the process, if they were there in the initial BLM inventory, they likely have a reason why they were left off of the RMP, could range from user conflicts to wildlife migration, or just a trail they felt they could live without.

Now, if it wasn't there in the initial inventory, we need to figure out the BLM's process to get it added. The fact the RMP was signed into law several months ago isn't super promising, my guess is the BLM isn't familiar with the process yet as its brand new and they would rather let the "dust settle" before they start making changes.

Furthermore, did you or any of your club members comment on these trails BEFORE the RMP comment period closed (comments had to be turned in by 1/3/08)? Can you post or email a copy of those comments, specifically in relation to the trails lost.

[cruiseroutfit]

Originally Posted by Hot dog

Dont know I was not out here in 01. I am about the only offroadwer I know out here now. Everyone else has moved out. Lokk at the old BLM maps from that time

Well then lets start with the trails you knew existed when you moved there and are closed now. Lets start with a simple trail list and we'll gather data, GIS, EIS, etc as needed from there.

[scoutabout]

Originally Posted by Hot dog

Lokk at the old BLM maps from that time.

If they weren't inventoried, then they wouldn't be on any maps if they were in an open travel area. And that is where the problem exists. It takes 5-8 years (sometimes even longer!) for an RMP to go from the announcement of intent to the final implementation. During the process, there's a specific stage where inventory data must be submitted.

The problem is lack of human resources. We don't have an accurate accounting of existing routes. We don't have enough people to do the mapping.

If you're going out to map routes, then it's going to be a very long process to get those routes added to the travel map. Stick with it. As always, we'd like to help.

[rockreligious]

You guys might have more luck with the 4x Club in Rangely Co, not far from Vernal and I know them guys do alot of crawling and Im sure they have wheeled that area as much as anyone, Ill see if I can find some contact info;

[scoutabout]

That would be great, thanks!

[rockreligious]

Originally Posted by rockreligious

You guys might have more luck with the 4x Club in Rangely Co, not far from Vernal and I know them guys do alot of crawling and Im sure they have wheeled that area as much as anyone, Ill see if I can find some contact info;

Rangely Rock Crawlers
p.o.box 164
605 east Rangely Ave.
Rangely, Co. 81648

tkjjwill@yahoo.com
www.rangely.com/RockCrawling.htm

these guys know how to work with the BLM also, they got 500 acres for a Rock Crawling Park for the city of Rangely from the BLM.

[scoutabout]

Originally Posted by rockreligious

Rangely Rock Crawlers
p.o.box 164
605 east Rangely Ave.
Rangely, Co. 81648

tkjjwill@yahoo.com
www.rangely.com/RockCrawling.htm

these guys know how to work with the BLM also, they got 500 acres for a Rock Crawling Park for the city of Rangely from the BLM.

Sweet, thanks!

That 500 acres was acquired using the Recreation and Public Purposes Act which allows for a variety of state/local govt entities and npo's to "lease" BLM land for public purposes (used for things like landfills, parks, etc). Uintah county just got a 1200 acre lease for a motorsports park.

http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/info/new...ase.print.html

I would be very interested in seeing the proposal submitted by the Rangely guys.

[Kurtuleas]

I brought this puppy back from the dead after I deleted all of the yapping.

If you are going to do that, please take it somewhere other than my land-use forum.

We are all on the same team guys.

[rockreligious]

Originally Posted by Kurtuleas

I brought this puppy back from the dead after I deleted all of the yapping.

If you are going to do that, please take it somewhere other than my land-use forum.

We are all on the same team guys.

Sweet, thanks

Scoutabout, I pmed you a bunch more contact info on Rangely Rock Crawlers, positions held, phone #.s, Emails, and Fax #.. Hope they can help.

[cruiseroutfit]

It would be helpful to start with a list of the affected 4x4 trails, potentially ranked by their "importance" to the offroad community. I hate to make it sound like some are better than others but we need to start by approaching the best and go from there. ie. if its a dirt road that extends a 1/4" mile to old drill site, lets not worry about that for now, however if there is a neat scenic trail that accesses a historic site or a legit rock-crawling trail that has been lost, lets hear about it!

PS... Thanks Kurtuleas for bringing this back to life