Hybrid Hummer Axles versus Mog Hybrid Axles

[Busto]

I want your guys opinion on the pros and cons of adapting a Hummer hub vice a mog hub on a hybird axle (Ford 9" diff). And the portal axle expertise seems to be on this forum.

Why are the mogs hybirds so prevalent, and the hummer hub ignored? The Hummer hub seems to be well designed, is tough, will run at sustained speeds of 70+ mph and is certainly available. What am I missing here?

[coachgeo]

I think it is just a timing thing, the Mog was available as surplus before the hummer was thus the technology grew there first (over sea's then brought here).

You may just be onto something big there since Hummer parts are hitting the market and Mog parts are getting more scarce. hmmmmmm.. Tardon, Wolfgang, Rye Guy etc.. Start looking at the Hummer stuff too... keep it all in the Bizz.

[Wolfgang]

Whe where looking into the Hummer portals several years ago, and the Mog portals are stronger (gears-bearings) and they are easier to adapt on another housing !

[Busto]

Whe where looking into the Hummer portals several years ago, and the Mog portals are stronger (gears-bearings) and they are easier to adapt on another housing !

How so? You have a lot more experience in machining and fabricating than I do, but I am very much into looking at the design as a whole, instead of trying to symple look at say the gears and write off the design. Can you give some tooth to that argument with shaft diameters, material, cost to machine, etc. I just want to make a better choice.

My thought was to run a Ford 9" center, with Hummer hubs (no rear steer).

First, the hummer hub seems to have no problems grenading in an 8k lbs GVW truck, so any extra "strength" (if any)" of the various mog designs is probably wasted for most vehicles on this board.

Second, the hummer case does not seem to have problems running at higher rpms, which is something that folks on this forum have pointed out as an issue with the mogs. That too is a measure of strength and robustness. Who cares if the gear design is stronger, but the oiling system capacity is less adequate and it makes the system more vulnerable to failure at higher speeds? Seems to make the hummer hub idea a better proposition for someone who might actually want to run their vehicle on the highway and not get blown off the I-5!

Third, wheels and tires are certainly a major expense, and hummer wheels are now getting very common and comparatively cheap (okay, at least in the USA) compared to yet another mod to be done to the axle to fit a common wheel design to the Mog.

Fourth, isn't the Hummer hub also a standard rotation unit allowing you to avoid the third member flipping issues if you run a hybird unit?

Fifth, doesn't the hummer hub have a lower lift ~on the order of 4" versus a higher lift for the mog? This would make the hummer a lot les desirable for the super extreme folks, but perhaps a litlle more desireable for the folks that do not want to deal with the suspension issues caused by the greater leverage of higher portals?

[ryeguy]

The large drum brakes impede airflow around the Mog portal, which in part dictates the max speed rating.

The Hummer hub still only has 2 gears in it, introducing many of the same problems (that have been solved) in the Mog hybrid scene.

You're only talking ~half-inch difference in actual height gained in the portal itself.

There are some rather big issues in using the Hummer hub, though.

But wait and see...

--Rob
www.exaxt.ca

[Busto]

There are some rather big issues in using the Hummer hub, though.

Please don't tease me!

[cruiserrg]

One of the biggest hurdles with the Hummer Hub is that is was originally IFS and the ball joints are at the top and bottom of the portalhousing. This will require a larger "C" on the knuckle that will hang much lower than a MOG portal, which will have less clearance at the wheels. These larger knuckles will have to be fabricated to be stronger than knuckle on regular front drive axles, and I believe there is no OEM knuckle that will work and therefore would drive the cost up to fabricate one.

One other major concern I would have is the fact the hummer portals use ball joints, which are weaker than the MOG kingpins IMHO.

Oh and here is a hummer hub just for reference:

[steve gerstner]

Originally posted by Wolfgang
Whe where looking into the Hummer portals several years ago, and the Mog portals are stronger (gears-bearings) and they are easier to adapt on another housing !

The hummer looks real go to me, main shaft is one piece forging with a shaft size of 1.950 with 46 spline and large bearings, 1.92 ratio, std. 8 lug, C.T.I.S., extreme duty ball joints - all designed for the military. Looks easy to me. steve differential eng. inc.

[Busto]

The hummer looks real go to me, main shaft is one piece forging with a shaft size of 1.950 with 46 spline and large bearings, 1.92 ratio, std. 8 lug, C.T.I.S., extreme duty ball joints - all designed for the military. Looks easy to me. steve differential eng. inc.

Ditto, It also has straight cut gears. Can anybody give these sam statistics for the 404/416 and other common Mog stuff?

[Puffdragon]

you can convert unimog axles to CTIS, the unimog parts are much stronger, and you can get variations with straight cut gears. the unimog stuff is all there, except for the speed issue of the common 404 axles, whcih i do not believe anyway. I would bet a 404 axle could handle 70-75 mph all day. the reason 404's are so slow, is becasue they have bushings in the tranny, that create several problems. Ohh, and they are underpowered.

[ryeguy]

Originally posted by Puffdragon
the reason 404's are so slow, is becasue they have bushings in the tranny, that create several problems. Ohh, and they are underpowered.

There are bushings in the front axle too (to support the axle shaft near the CV).

--Rob

[Mieser]

Just replace all the bushings with bearings?

What are you going to do for brakes on the hummer stuff? Isn't that stuff all inboard on a hummer?

[Busto]

What are you going to do for brakes on the hummer stuff? Isn't that stuff all inboard on a hummer?

Yes they are, but fabricating up a set cannot be that hard.

the unimog parts are much stronger

Okay, people keep saying this, but no one has laid the parts out side by side, quoted any material lists or provided measurements or tooth counts for the gears etc. So I am still asking people to prove it. No trepidation one way or the other. I have seen hummers driven hard at speed all day long in military manuevers, on and off road, and have never seen or heard of the portal gear casing cracking (grenading) or the hub overheating. Yet folks on this forum have reported these problems with mogs. And I have spoken with a lot of military mechanics that hate the hummer, but have never cited the hub as a problem. And if the hubs are tough enough to survive on an 8000 lb gvw truck, they should be good enough for most users on this BBS.

Its like the Dana 60 craze on the the other forums. Yet after doing some serious research I believe the Ford 9" seems to have it beat hands down for most applications.

[steve gerstner]

Your right busto, i believe the home grown hummer 9" portal can do a better job than a mog and cost less with 8 lug, disc brakes,CTIS. steve differential eng. inc.

[Puffdragon]

I have heard of alot of hummer hubs blowing out as well, And if i had it on my comp not in my camcorder, i woudl send you a video of me hammering my 404 on Nemisis 3 in Las cruses fro about 30 min. the truck woudl jump a couple of feet in teh air, and come down hard with the hammer down hard. the bottom line is, that the 404 axle is hands down stronger, and no you could not produce a hummer hubed 9" hybrid with discs etc for les than a 404 axle. You woudl probably be looking at $2000 per axle with the setup you propose. And a 404 front can be had on a good day, NOS for around $1200.00 and the rears are $800.00 They are light, strong, and can be resized to fit your need. Whats not to like. We chunk hummer hubs in the scrap pill all day long. they are worth more as scrap metal than on a truck, unless you have IFS/IRS. You should look at putting 404 hubs on a 9" housing. Keep in mind, that 404's are designed to weight in at around 12,000 loaded, and run all day long in any terrain. A hummer with that load would be hurtin.

[Busto]

You woudl probably be looking at $2000 per axle with the setup you propose. And a 404 front can be had on a good day, NOS for around $1200.00 and the rears are $800.00

Yes, and that money gets you a drum brake axle with a funky bolt pattern and limited options for locking differentials. And you also just bought a portal hub that is decades old. Mercedes outstanding support notwithstanding, I bet the hummer hub will be in production a lot longer and there will be lot more of them made than Mercedes will ever make of the Mogs. So if you do blow a hub you are going to find a replacement hummer hub a lot quicker than the mog hub, at least in the states. And with US military surplus, you are probaby going to be able to buy a lot of spare hummer hubs cheap!

Adding disk brakes and either buying custom wheels or changing the lug pattern is going to cost you big bucks and is going to make the cost of the two axles a lot closer than you are trying to say. Besides, you have to look at total cost which should take into account the wheel factor. Hummer wheels are relatively cheap and easy to find. To compare the pricing of mog 9" to the hummer 9" you have to compare apples to apples: disk brakes and some reasonable wheel bolt pattern.

[Busto]

Actually, I have seen several Hummer hubs grenade...

Thanks for clearing that myth up.

I still want some facts and if possible, some side by side pictures comparing the two hubs and their guts. All this "x is stronger than y" crap is not useful without some sort of factual back up.

[coachgeo]

Originally posted by Busto
Thanks for clearing that myth up.

I still want some facts and if possible, some side by side pictures comparing the two hubs and their guts. All this "x is stronger than y" crap is not useful without some sort of factual back up.

You sound as stuborn as me Busto

side by side data / Pics makes since to me too. I think we can scrounge up Mog axle part pics around here for this job.

Anyone got hummer axle gear pics?

[Busto]

You sound as stuborn as me Busto

Hey, I sahould have been born in "the show me" state. I just hate trying to make rational decisions on "it sucks" or "it blew up" data.

[steve gerstner]

Originally posted by Puffdragon
I have heard of alot of hummer hubs blowing out as well, And if i had it on my comp not in my camcorder, i woudl send you a video of me hammering my 404 on Nemisis 3 in Las cruses fro about 30 min. the truck woudl jump a couple of feet in teh air, and come down hard with the hammer down hard. the bottom line is, that the 404 axle is hands down stronger, and no you could not produce a hummer hubed 9" hybrid with discs etc for les than a 404 axle. You woudl probably be looking at $2000 per axle with the setup you propose. And a 404 front can be had on a good day, NOS for around $1200.00 and the rears are $800.00 They are light, strong, and can be resized to fit your need. Whats not to like. We chunk hummer hubs in the scrap pill all day long. they are worth more as scrap metal than on a truck, unless you have IFS/IRS. You should look at putting 404 hubs on a 9" housing. Keep in mind, that 404's are designed to weight in at around 12,000 loaded, and run all day long in any terrain. A hummer with that load would be hurtin.

All right, look at the numbers

• custom alloy axles $700.00
• disc brakes $1,000.00
• 8 lug $550.00
• CTIS $490.00
• 9" housing,ARB,flanges,N case,labor $2,500.00
• That looks like $6,440.00 yea, real cheap

[Puffdragon]

What are you quoting here, a hummer 9" or a mog 9". I guess it does not really matter, because it confirms what I said, that it is not worth the trouble, since you can have a complete front axle from a 404 for $1200. Put custom hummer rims on it, and your set. Screw the disc brakes etc. My 404 with manual brakes is zero problem on the trails, and I dont find myself getting tired. Add a little vacume assit to the 404 drums, and your set. And the Mog 9" is not a huge weight advantage, and I assume this is why you would do it. My vote is for stock 404 axles, it always has been, thats why I own a Mog. The hummer stuff is not worth the trouble.

Originally posted by steve gerstner
All right, look at the numbers

• custom alloy axles $700.00
• disc brakes $1,000.00
• 8 lug $550.00
• CTIS $490.00
• 9" housing,ARB,flanges,N case,labor $2,500.00
• That looks like $6,440.00 yea, real cheap

[Slowzuki]

Just to throw something else out there, all you guys who like your straight cut gears, the teeth on helicals are actually stronger. The problem is they generate side loads so your gear case and shafting better be up to it.

Also, if the stock drum brakes on a mog can stop 12000 lb reasonably, why do you need discs when swapped into a 4000 lb truck? I know about the trick of fitting "regular" rim with discs.

How bout some people throwing in the volvo portal specs too.

Ken

[ryeguy]

Hm. Is $6440 one axle or two? And if it's 2 axles, where are the 4 Hummer portals?

In any case, have you officially announced your new axle yet, Steve? I'm just curious. If so, we'll be a few months behind you. You do some pretty cool stuff, I'm curious how this one turns out.

--Rob

Originally posted by steve gerstner
All right, look at the numbers

• custom alloy axles $700.00
• disc brakes $1,000.00
• 8 lug $550.00
• CTIS $490.00
• 9" housing,ARB,flanges,N case,labor $2,500.00
• That looks like $6,440.00 yea, real cheap

[Scout Dude]

Nope...saw 3 of them blow from hard driving, not from lack of PM!...and I never made it to SGT

[ryeguy]

Ah well, nobody said I was ahead of the game, eh? Just trying to stay in it.

5 years ago, I was 'wheeling every weekend, designing my own suspensions, buiding my own dual T-case and stroker I-6 motor.

--Rob

Originally posted by Daniel
RYe guy
your only 5 years behind
A guy put hummer hubs on his 60's under a blue bronco in the mid 90's...



ALso A guy (brainiac For CAT) built a set and has them done in his garage now.

Another guy in wisconson is building a set for his ranger... there almost done too

"Hummer9" the axle that is NEXT!