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Old 11-08-2002, 08:06 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Other Unimog Axle Options

I want to know if there are narrower Unimog axles than the 404 and 416s that are frequently discused that I can use for my application. Some have mentioned a smaller Unimog with a narrower track.

My project will be (still in planning phase) a Land Rover Defender 110 (110" wheel base). I am thinking of dropping in an Ford ZF 5 speed and Klune or NV4500 and Klune so the Front drive shaft will be 7-8" longer than stock. I want to reuse the LT230 transfer case - drive shafts are both offset to the right (passenger side for us gringos). Engine is still undertermined at this point, but I am looking at something in the 200HP, 300-350 ft- lbs range. Truck will see a lot of mud, some sand, modest rock crawling and spend a lot of time climbing earth covered volcanos (dormant type) plus the usual crappy 2nd/3rd world roads. I will live out of the truck for week+ long trips.

I know that the closest portal axle "fit" for my application is a Volvo 303, but I am am leary about Volvo parts support (particularly for an out of production axle) as the vehicle will spend most of its life in Central and South America (don't want to start a parts availability debate). Mercedes has well established in the region. I also want as close to a stock axle as I can get.

Solutions?
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Old 11-08-2002, 09:13 AM   #2 (permalink)
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eithe use axles from a 411 (a smaller u-mog. or have some 404's cut down. one of the big issues will be that the mog axles have the diff on the wrong side for you, so either you'll have to change t-cases or you and in for some interesting custom work on the axle.

Talk to one of the mog axle suppliers, there are many, but Extact in BC canada and wolfgang's operation come to mind. They will know better than I what can be done to the axles.
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Old 11-08-2002, 01:16 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Thanks for the response. I thought that I was going to have to flip the axle and diff to make it work. Do You know what the distance between wheel mounting surfaces is on a 411? Also, does it come from the factory with disc brakes?
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Old 11-08-2002, 06:22 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Hey Busto
I just bought a set of 411 axles and they are 56'' wide WMS to WMS. You would probably need to run wheel adapters so it would end up about 59". They come with the same large drum brakes that the 404s use. I might be interested in selling them or making a trade, contact me if interested.

Rusty
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Old 11-08-2002, 08:06 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geargoyle
Hey Busto
I just bought a set of 411 axles and they are 56'' wide WMS to WMS. You would probably need to run wheel adapters so it would end up about 59". They come with the same large drum brakes that the 404s use. I might be interested in selling them or making a trade, contact me if interested.

Rusty
Be careful with them though, as they are the weakest of all Unimog axles.

56" wide, wow that is tiny. My U-1300 axles are 82"wms-wms . I am going to be running wheels which are nearly 100% backspace though, so my total width will end up being about 84" wide with my 17" wide tires.

Sean
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Old 11-08-2002, 08:18 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Like Station said

and hardest to get parts for
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Old 11-08-2002, 09:22 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Did you buy the set from Scott Ingram? I think he had a set for sale for $700 a little while back.

Would make some sweet axles for a competition rock racing Go-Kart though.

On that note, I am actully considering building a very small(I mean VERY SMALL) tube frame just for competitions that are sprouting up on my coast. Plan is to make it so that my control arms , out to my axles from my wheeling buggy would bolt on to the super mini chassis. Can you imagine a 350# sprung weight vehicle with with 3000#'s of unsprung weight, 53" tires, and 26" of differential clearance!!?

Sean
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Old 11-08-2002, 09:38 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Like minds

station I have been thinking SMALL too. I would love to have a rockcrawling cart.... something realllllllllllll light so my mog could tow it.. Smallest thing I can think of .. actually available is a sammy.

I would love to make one out of an ATV! but I dont have the experience or money to "make" To be be extra crazy I would love to use a small diesel motor for several reasons.
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Old 11-09-2002, 08:39 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Be careful with them though, as they are the weakest of all Unimog axles.
Station, can you elaborate? Are they weaker portal housings, is the differential the problem, the housing, the axles etc Are they equal in strength to a Dana 60 (Dana 44, Volvo)? My application does not require the same strength as the larger mogs. In fact my fall back option was to look for a military 110 Salisbury front axle (basically a Dana 60 with birfields).

Also, if I do a disk brake conversion, how much wider is the axle going to get? My preference is to go with discs if possible.

What about offsets and finally, can you get creative by say bolting on a 416 or 404 outer to a 411 if the "strength issue" is the hub?

Sorry for asking all these questions. but I would rather get it right befor laying out a lot of cash and ending up with a mediocre solution.

Last edited by Busto; 11-09-2002 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 11-09-2002, 01:05 PM   #10 (permalink)
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The outer reduction box and the diferentials are the same as the 404s, only thing that might be weaker would be the axle shafts themselves. I will know more once I get them pulled apart.
And yes I did buy these from Scott, they happen to be the same width as a Toyota axle, my plan was to build a fly weight buggy with 1500# unsprung weight and as light as possible sprung weight. Am kicking around power plant ideas. Anything from a complete engine & trans from a Honda car driving the diffs with the axle shafts to a 2.5 Mercury outboard engine with 225 to 280 HP. Any sugestions would be considered. But more seriously considering a 3.2 Isuzu V6 and a W56 trany. The front axle will need to have the diff moved to the pass side with the Toy t-case.

Rusty
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Old 11-09-2002, 02:07 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geargoyle
The outer reduction box and the diferentials are the same as the 404s, only thing that might be weaker would be the axle shafts themselves. I will know more once I get them pulled apart.
And yes I did buy these from Scott, they happen to be the same width as a Toyota axle, my plan was to build a fly weight buggy with 1500# unsprung weight and as light as possible sprung weight. Am kicking around power plant ideas. Anything from a complete engine & trans from a Honda car driving the diffs with the axle shafts to a 2.5 Mercury outboard engine with 225 to 280 HP. Any sugestions would be considered. But more seriously considering a 3.2 Isuzu V6 and a W56 trany. The front axle will need to have the diff moved to the pass side with the Toy t-case.

Rusty
I am no expert, so I hope some of the experts that we have available will show up.

I am pretty sure that the hubs are not the same as 404 hubs. Wolfgang who has many mog axles, and parts has mentioned before that the gears are narrower along with other things being smaller.

Sean

Last edited by Station; 11-09-2002 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 11-09-2002, 02:46 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Busto
Station, can you elaborate? Are they weaker portal housings, is the differential the problem, the housing, the axles etc Are they equal in strength to a Dana 60 (Dana 44, Volvo)? My application does not require the same strength as the larger mogs. In fact my fall back option was to look for a military 110 Salisbury front axle (basically a Dana 60 with birfields).

Also, if I do a disk brake conversion, how much wider is the axle going to get? My preference is to go with discs if possible.

What about offsets and finally, can you get creative by say bolting on a 416 or 404 outer to a 411 if the "strength issue" is the hub?

Sorry for asking all these questions. but I would rather get it right befor laying out a lot of cash and ending up with a mediocre solution.
I had typed up a pretty long post earlier, and it got messed up when I tried to post it.

I covered your first question in the post above.
I would say that the differential is the last thing to worry about on any Mog axle. I would say that a very good condition 411 axle would be as strong or a bit stronger than a Dana 60 from the things that I have heard about them, but since I do not have a set myself, and have not taken them apart myself, I can not confirm what I have heard about them.

Jare Solonen who is on this board ran 411 axles on his Finnish Trials buggy, which had a 350 SB V8 , and 44" tires, for a long time. I think he has only recently had any failures with them.

From the disk brake kits which are currently available (Exaxt, Teradon Inc. , and Tibus Off-Road) it looks like you will gain about 7" of width.

Offset of the differential is 3.75" on 404 axles. I assume that this measurement is the same on 411 axles. This is something can can be quite hard to deal with. Offsetting the engine to the passenger side will be necessary on some vehicles. Also, the rear differential is offset opposite of the front, so that is something to consider on a rig with very short drive lines. Some of the 3 peice axles , like my U-1300 axles, have the difential offset 7" to the driver side both front and rear(I am running 2 front axles, so my axles will not have both differentials on the driver side).

You probably can bolt 404 hubs in place of 411 hubs, but you may have to replace the inner knuckle to do this(The inner knuckles bolt on anyway). You will definitlly not be able to bolt 416 hubs on a 411 axle. The knuckle setup is totally different. The 416 hubs are much larger than those on the earlier axles.

Sean
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Old 11-13-2002, 09:43 AM   #13 (permalink)
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411 axles are same axles like 404īs exept the shafts. They are little different because shorter, The shorter shafts are always thinner because they need all the same twist.

www.killeraxles.com
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Old 11-14-2002, 09:42 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Thanks to all for your responses.
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Old 11-18-2002, 10:13 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Greetings from Finland

Hi there.

Yep we run with 411 type axles in our cars. We have two cars: Moggster (older) and Alfaster (new one). In Moggster we have 350 Chevy and TH350 tranny and we mixed some NP208 and Mog tranny parts to get T-case. It has 4 wheel steering, 44" Swamper TSL tyres, home made tube frame and aluminum body. We haven't measured it but weights about 2200kg. It runs on cast iron type 411 mog axles. Original parts from 411 axles are differentials and If I remember correct two axle shafts. Rest of them (two axle shafts and some portal gears) are changed to who knows what, but bigger mog parts. We have broke some portal gears with this car, but never the housing. But now when the parts are changed to bigger mog parts we haven't had any problems. I think it was at '99 when we last broke something.

Jare and Moggster from Finland
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Old 11-18-2002, 10:24 AM   #16 (permalink)
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And here is the Alfaster. It runs 411 non-cast iron axles, 44" Swamper TSL, Alfa Romeo 3.0l aluminum V6, ZF 4 geared automatic tranny, that also works as t-case. It also has 4 wheel steering, home made tube frame and aluminum body. Alfaster weights about 1750kg (not sure, because we haven't had time to measure it). These axles has thicker axle shafts, but portals are from different 411 mogs. We had two brand new portal gear sets but the other one broked at Norway at last summer. But I think it was Wolfgang who said that those portals could be the very first unimog parts ever made. And that it's not impossible that they would have worse quality than some other parts. After the Norway we haven't broke anything, but I think that the Alfaster hasn't been punished enough hard after that competition. And now it's snow on the ground here in Finland so there's no dry rocks to crawl over

Jare & Kari Salonen and Alfaster
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Old 11-18-2002, 09:24 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jare
............[snip] . And now it's snow on the ground here in Finland so there's no dry rocks to crawl over

Jare & Kari Salonen and Alfaster
Im in that situation year round. cept Mud is around here and no rocks to speak of at all.

Got to say... MANNNNN those are two of the best looking rigs I have ever seen...... Looks like they wheel better than they look too.

WOWWWWw
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