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Old 01-07-2009, 10:29 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Mild 460 build

Hey all, been searching Pirate for a long time now, but haven't posted much at all. Great to see a Mud section, as mud racing and bogging has a huge following across the country!

Onto my current dilemma. I have a 78 Bronco used primarily for mud, 1 tons, 5.13's, locked f/r, dual-triangulated 4-link f/r, full cage, full hydro, etc..., and a 351M. I recently scored 2 460's (1 is a 1983, and the other is a 1985, both w/ 4x4 truck pans) for $350. One is already 0.040" overbore, and has had the cranked turned 0.010" under. The short block is complete, but I intend to tear it down just to ensure what I have. It already has oversize pistons in it (look to be cast aluminum), and a mild Lunati Voodoo cam (not sure off the top of my head on exact cam specs, but I have the cam card if needed). The other engine is setting as a short block as well, but has had no machine work done to it. I have all hardware necessary to build both engines complete in stock form, including stock heads

Here is my question. I would like to build the 0.040" engine for now to put into the truck, but would like to keep the build mild. I plan to build the other engine later this year or next spring, and this one will be serious (stroker, aluminum heads, etc...). However, I don't want to throw the 0.040" engine together and be seriously disappointed with power after having spent money on it. I know that setting the engine up with headers, aluminum intake, and setting the cam timing straight up (factory is retarded) will net me some gains, but I am concerned about the heads, as that is where these engines are really restricted.

I have spent a lot of time searching on 460ford.com, and haven't been able to find what I was looking for. Most "budget" builds on there hardly change any hardware, and are going into heavy boat-cars with 3.50:1 gearing. This is quite a bit different than the gearing we run, as well as the atmosphere in which our engines work.

I don't want to put money into iron heads, as I know that I will go to a more serious set of heads for the future stroker engine. After all, with the rate of machine shop work nowadays, you might as well wait and buy aftermarket heads.

I am willing to buy the obvious things (al. intake, timing set,headers, roller rockers (if possible), and new cam if necessary).

If there is anyone who has rebuilt a 460 using stock heads, were you pleased with the "bang for the buck" horsepower, or did you feel it would have been beneficial to wait and get a good set of heads for your engine.

Any and all input is appreciated, and if you have any kind of dyno numbers or engine build-up info, please post it!

Thank you
Adam
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Old 01-08-2009, 06:00 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Factory iron heads will support plenty in done rite, A set of CJ's # DOOE-R, Will easily support 600 HP with just a little rubbing as will a set of DOVE's with some larger valves and some porting. You need to decide what you want from the engine before we can really help you. First order of buisness is to find out what pistons are in that .040 engine. Even the (junk smogger D3's) will support 600 HP with larger valves and the right person porting them, You just need the piston's to help get you there but they are not cheap as they have to be custom made for the application. Don't ask
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Old 01-08-2009, 09:03 AM   #3 (permalink)
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IDIeselman, thanks for the reply. I suppose I did leave some of the necessary information out. I think getting 400hp out of the "mild" 460 would suffice, and I would be fine with a redline of 6000rpm, with a good powerband (cam/manifold application) of 1500-5500 rpm. I plan to tear the short block apart this weekend to see what the pistons are exactly. I can see that they look to be cast aluminum, and that they have valve relief cuts, but that is all I can tell without removing them and checking part numbers.

Also, as far as heads, for some reason I haven't been able to locate any of the idenfitying numbers on them. The way I understood, the D3VE, DOVE, etc..., should be located right above the exhaust ports, but I have 4 heads, and haven't seen it? Maybe I am completely missing something there.

My end goal is to build a 550-600 hp reliable N/A engine for the truck, but I figured that could come from the spare 460 I also have.

Bottom line is, the truck is currently underpowered. It probably makes 250hp with the 351M that is in there (the engine is not stock, but I am a realist). Amazingly enough, the truck does fairly well for what it is, but I would like more horsepower. I figured that instead of putting nitrous on the 351M, I should just put together the 0.040" 460 for a mild build, which would hopefully net me the same end result on hp, plus higher torque.

I eventually want a high hp motor, but for now, a reliable and strong running mild 460 is what I am looking for (400 hp, 5500 peak power).

Any additional input is greatly appreciated.
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Old 01-08-2009, 09:11 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Also, IDI, I see that you have built a 514 for your truck (great looking truck by the way!). Would you be willing to post engine build specs? I want to throw the mild 460 into the truck, but am now wondering if I should save my money, run this summer on the 351M, and build the engine I really want (stroker, big hp, etc) for the spring of 2010.

Thanks
Adam
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Old 01-08-2009, 09:19 AM   #5 (permalink)
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if that 351m is stock it doesn't matter if you do anything to that 460 you will be amazed, I replace my stock 351m with a stock 460 from a 76 van, I set the timing straight up and the diffference is crazy
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Old 01-08-2009, 10:09 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Put the .040 over 460 in with parts you own (assuming the pistons aren't total garbage like 'Hy-Duty' or something).

While you assemble a 505 or 514. The kits to do that are way cheap these days.

Cut your redline to 5000 and you won't have to do much to the engine at all.

Just one man's opinion.
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Old 01-08-2009, 10:27 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Adam if you have some later model heads the #'s are on the bottom intake side. As for the 400HP goal Here's a list of one of my early builds 423HP/476TQ. 78 block 78 D3 smogger heads with just the thermo bump removed in the exhaust port, KB hypers 9.7 CR .040 over=468CID, Lunati cam#61602 219/227-540/552 112 LSA, This is about MAX lift with the factory valvetrain without machining the heads to prevent coil bind and smashing the valve seals. Edelbrock performer(not RPM) 1" jomar cloverleaf spacer, 750 holley,1 7/8 long tube headers. You may have everything you need to get there already. If not shoot me a PM as everything I listed besides the heads but including the crank and rods (standard) are in my attic and only have 9 passes on them. My current build is the same 78 high deck block, Scat stroker crank/H beam rods, Trick flow track heat single plane intake, 850 quick fuel, solid flat tappet cam-239/244@.050-615/619,107* seperation. I'm still running the D3's just because everyone thinks the won't make power. I have installed 2.250 intake and 1.725 exhaust valves with alot of porting, I had to have a set of diamond pistons custom made to get the compression up to 12-1 because of the big combustion chamber of the D3's. And don't worry about winding 5500 RPm's as in stock form these engines easily handle that and plenty more.

Last edited by IDIeselman; 01-08-2009 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 01-08-2009, 05:48 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Lots of great opinions and info, thanks guys! IDI, the "mild" build you listed is exactly what I was looking for, as you didn't seem to do much at all to the heads (I already planned to remove the thermactor bump and gasket match these heads if I used them). Now, as far as your terminology of factory valvetrain, did you run completely stock valvetrain, or did you change anything to net these numbers? It looks like, from your post, that you later installed larger valves to the same heads that were on your previous build. Did you also use stock pushrods and rockers?

If this is the case, it looks like I have pretty much everything I have to make this a cheap and valued engine swap!

Now, not to take this thread to a different tangent, but what gearing are some of you mud guys running? The main reason I want to change to the 460 is for gained power and torque. The 351M does okay for most everything I am doing (0.040" over, stock heads, mild cam, Edelbrock intake, headers, ignition, etc...), but the engine does get bogged down when the truck gets in a deep hole.

I am currently running a C-6 with a with an extremely mild torque converter, 205 case, and 5.13's, locked f/r, and cut 44" TSL's. IDI, as you have a 78 Bronco/Truck, I am going to assume that you have a 205 case as well. With the "mild" engine you used to run, what torque converter stall speed did you match up to that Lunati Cam?

Guys, once again, thanks for all of your input, and any other info is greatly appreciated!

Adam
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Old 01-08-2009, 06:54 PM   #9 (permalink)
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You read well pilgrim The 61602 is the biggest cam I could run (reliably) and still use the stock rockers/pushrods, When I went with the stroker I used the harland sharp pedestal mount adjustable roller rockers (nice set-up)

With the 468 build I ran 3.50 gears,35/16-15 boggers and a 10" Art Carr 2200 stall, 2nd gear @ 5700 is where it usually ran.

If you want to re cam your 351 while your build is under way, The trick is getting a camshaft with a bunch of torque but, have enough duration and overlap to avoid detonation while under a heavy load.

ELGIN has a good one which works #E-1155-P ; Single pattern - 284 off the seat - 208@.050" - .484" valve lift - 111 seperation; 107 intake centerline.

www.elginind.com

Last edited by IDIeselman; 01-08-2009 at 07:05 PM.
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Old 01-08-2009, 09:04 PM   #10 (permalink)
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id just run what you have with a alluminum intake, headers, a cam with something around .500 lift, and some aftermarket valve springs, a msd box and a fresh carb. it will be something to play with and will tote the tires fine with 5.13's
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Old 01-10-2009, 06:03 PM   #11 (permalink)
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You could rebuild that 351M into a 400 pretty cheap thats what i just did with mine and it runs great I'm real happy with it. Save the money for motor mounts etc and put towards parts for the 400.

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Old 01-12-2009, 08:16 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Guys, thanks for all the replies. Wyazel1, I have run a 400 in the truck before, as it was the engine previous to the 351M that is in the truck now. When the truck was on 38's, both of those engines did fine. However, after reading IDIeselman info on his hp and torque numbers with pretty much stock smogger heads, I have decided to go with the 460.

With the numbers listed, I may very well end up satisfied with the engine for quite some time.

I am going to a stock car/drag car swap meet this weekend hunting for parts (al. intake, etc...), and am going to tear down the 0.040" 460 this Sunday for inspection. Then, I plan to start buying necessary hardware in March.

I hope to have the engine in the truck in April, as my friend and I start putting on our bogs this summer starting in May (www.earthresin4x4.com)!

Thanks for the help guys!
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Old 01-12-2009, 09:29 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Adam, When you pull it down post the part #'s
Heads
block
rods
pistons
crank. If I can't tell you what they all are, I can find out. It sure makes the decision of where to go alot easier if you know where you are starting.
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Old 01-12-2009, 11:24 AM   #14 (permalink)
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IDI, will do. Planning to tear the pistons/rods out of it this weekend.

Also, on a side note, what is everyone doing for headers? I need to run fenderwell exit due to my front 4-link. I was looking at L&L, but they are only using 1 3/4" primaries, and I would like to buy one set of headers (plenty for this engine, but still big enough for the possible future stroker). I have seen people post that they run Hedmans, but I have only found chassis exit for my application. I thought about zoomies, but I don't kow if I would like that too much.

Thanks for the info guys.
Adam
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Old 01-12-2009, 11:52 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Been keeping an eye on this thread, as I will soon be building an engine for my 86 F250 tow rig. It currently has a stock '86 460 with a spun rod bearing. It was decked out with two smog pumps and miles of hoses and I guess is a low compression smog motor. I also have a 79 460 that needs an overhaul as well. It had almost no smog equipment, but a different crank that doesn't use the separate external balance weight on front of the crank.
Would the '79 460 be the better motor to build?
Will the accesories from the 86 bolt to the 78?
What should I watch out for?
I've posted this in the tow rigs and trailer section but it seemed no one knew anything about the ford big blocks there. Been a chevy man for 20 years and just don't know shit about fords....
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:12 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bayouhazard View Post
Been keeping an eye on this thread, as I will soon be building an engine for my 86 F250 tow rig. It currently has a stock '86 460 with a spun rod bearing. It was decked out with two smog pumps and miles of hoses and I guess is a low compression smog motor. I also have a 79 460 that needs an overhaul as well. It had almost no smog equipment, but a different crank that doesn't use the separate external balance weight on front of the crank.
Would the '79 460 be the better motor to build?
Will the accesories from the 86 bolt to the 78?
What should I watch out for?
I've posted this in the tow rigs and trailer section but it seemed no one knew anything about the ford big blocks there. Been a chevy man for 20 years and just don't know shit about fords....
I would build the block with the least mileage, personally.
Accesories should bolt right up with little conflict if any.

If you want more info either go to
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/index.php
or
http://nwuonline.com/Forum/
Look for the appropriate engine forums. There are a lot of extremely knowledgable 460 enthusiasts.
You could also pm "proeliator" and "STGFordCrazy04" right here in pirate. Both are very knowledgable and know others who are even more knowledgable.
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:23 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Even though the 79 doesn't have as much emisisons crap on it, they're both low compression smog engines, stock to stock, the 86 at 245hp is the higher output of the two.
Although, you say the earlier engine is an internally balanced unit? A 79 engine should be external like the 86, 78 and older are internal.
That said, it may have been re-built at some point, the cranks are interchangeable, so long as you keep the bobweight and flywheel/flexplate with it.
If the truck is a manual, use the external balance crank, then your flywheel will work with no changes(Ford never built an internal balanced 460 with a manual.) Someone else I'm sure will be able to chime in on wether or not just having it rebalanced would make it work with the earlier crank, I seem to remember something about using a 390 one.
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Old 01-19-2009, 10:56 PM   #18 (permalink)
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what up Adam. I heard you ran into some slop during teardown.
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:39 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Yeah, the 0.040" 460 didn't turn out as expected upon teardown, but that is what I should expect I guess. The Lunati camshaft and lifters appear to be junk. The lifters had grind marks on the bottom like someone took a grinding wheel to the bottom of them. This also flatlobed some of the lobes on the cam. I think the damage to the cam could have also been due to the bottom end issues I found. The crank appears to have been turned down during the machining process when the last person rebuilt it. However, the previous builder thought it would be awesome to use standard size bearings. Every journal, main and rod, looks to be completely trashed on the crankshaft.

However, there is light at the end of the tunnel. I pulled 1 rod cap and all of the main caps off of my other 460, and that crank looks great. The bearings even say Ford on the back, so this may possibly be a completely stock bottom end! Also, it looks like the pistons out of the 0.040" 460 are still okay.

I measured the cylinder bores, rod bearing bore i.d., and main bearing bore i.d., and the block measures within spec. of what it should.

So, the plan goes as this. I am going to pull the crank out of the other block and take it and the rods to a local machine shop to get measured. If everything checks okay, I am going to put that crank into the 0.040" block (after it is thoroughly cleaned) and build up from there.

I have been talking to a local mud racer, and have possibly got a set of DOVE's lined up with Harland Sharp roller rockers. He is a pretty serious racer, and this stuff isn't too much use to him. I am going to talk to him today and get a price for what all he has. Still trying to decide how much I want to spend on this engine when I know I am going to build a stroker down the road.

Those of you with mild built 460's, what changes have you made from stock, and what do you feel made the most improvements. I am going to do a baseline build of the following:

1)0.040" block and pistons (can't find info on the pistons, so I am not sure yet of comp.)
2)mild cam (I am thinking about one of the cam kits from Summit, which comes with camshaft, lifters, timing chain, valve seals, springs, keepers, etc...)
3)either Weiand Stealth intake or Edelbrock Performer RPM (I run a Predator carb, and have been told it seems to work best when on the Stealth)
4)HEI Distributor
5)Thinking Schoenfeld truck-pull headers (good flow, and you don't have to worry about them getting underwater, plus I am currently hitting the tires against my fenderwell exits)
6)If money allows, I am going to go with the DOVE heads and Harland Sharps

I think this would come together and be a pretty strong engine. However, I am curious as to just how much difference the DOVE's would make versus my smogger heads.

By the way, I was asked by IDIeselman a while back for a list of what hardware I have, and it is as follows:
1)External balanced truck blocks (the ones that are potentially better for strokers as to their longer cylinders)
2)Truck rods
3)Smogger heads

This info goes for both engines I have.

Any info is appreciated.
Adam
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Old 01-22-2009, 07:52 AM   #20 (permalink)
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For a while i ran a mid 70s truck 460 that was internally balanced. It was 30 over with stock cast pistons, truck rods and i think it was a 3y crank? Ran a comp 270 cam at the time. Had a slightly rough idle, pulled good to over 5000 rpm. Ran eddie performer intake, eddie 750 carb, stock ignition and headman headders. Ran stock d3 heads with completely stock valve train. Ran 3.50 gears and 38s. I ran a 4 speed manual so 2nd gear at about 6200Rs or so was the sweet spot. Engine would float about 6500. least you got the truck rods and not the car rods.

All in all mine wasnt much over stock and it was a monster, coming from a 302..lol

Not many trucks in town were faster than mine either. I think youll be way happy.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:14 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I think I will be happy with the basics for the first engine (straight up cam timing, new cam, might rework heads, intake, predator carb, HEI distributor, headers). I have pretty much the same modifications on the 351M that is in the truck now. It is definitely not a powerhouse, but it used to get the job done just fine on 38's and 3.50 gears. The truck now has 5.13's, but the 44's are too much for the little engine.

The way I figure it, I am going to do pretty much the same modifications to an engine that has 110 more cubes. Can't be going backward at least!

I am going to yank the crankshaft out of my other 460 this weekend. After that, I am going to measure everything, and get going on a rebuild. I am also hoping to dial in exactly what camshaft, torque converter, etc..., that I plan to order by the end of the weekend. I will be sure to post up my thoughts here to get some feedback.

Thanks for all the info guys. I think this is going to turn out fine no matter what I do.

Plus, by saving money on this engine build, I am probably going to score a pair of 18.4x16.1 Goodyears for the rear of the truck for $300. They are brand new! I figure with the difference in savings on the engine, I can buy those and two more wheels, and throw them on the back!

Thanks for all the help guys. I will post up my engine hardware plans this weekend after I evaluate the other crankshaft/block.

Adam
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Old 01-22-2009, 12:53 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Adam, Like you said you should be happy with it but, Without knowing what pistons you have compression wise it's going to be hard to get a cam you will be happy with, There is a number on them somewhere ,Post it and we can tell you what they are. At the least set the rotating ASSY in with no rings for ease of the job and measure how far down in the cylinder the pistons are at TDC, You then can have the block zero decked (cheap torque and HP with little cost) to obtain at or near 0.040 quench with the D3 heads, This will also give you a little better comp .

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Old 01-22-2009, 01:22 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDIeselman View Post
Factory iron heads will support plenty in done rite
Therein lies the problem; it sounds like the op doesn't want to spend any time/money on his stock heads.

460 are amazing engines, what they lack from the factory is the ability to breath. This means a different intake, different carb, different exhaust, a proper cam to motivate the valves; and of course some time spent in the heads to bring them to life.

Earth, the problem with keeping your stock heads with a relatively stock build is twofold; low compression and flow rates. You can get earlier stock heads that will bring your compression back into the respectable 9.5:1 territory, but even then they need to be ported. You can do this yourself on the cheap. I'd suggest a $20 lifetime subscription to this site: http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com/

Scott is the king of bbf iron head performance and has step by step instructions on how to work your heads yourself.
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Old 01-22-2009, 05:25 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Pro, you are right about part of my dilemma with stock heads. First of all, the heads I have are relatively useless (smogger heads). So, I pretty much narrow my options down to finding OEM heads or going aftermarket. As I have stated, I am not going to go crazy with this engine, as I plan to build a stroker in the future.

I spoke with a mudracer locally that had a set of DOVE's w/o valve or springs. With those and a used set of Harland Sharps, he was asking $650. I just don't see that as worth the money for an imcomplete set of heads that will need machine work, as well as springs, valves, guide plates, etc. By the time the machining work and assembly is done, I wouldn't be that far from buying aluminum heads.

I also am not sure I can justify spending $2000 on heads right now, which is pretty close to bare minimum on aftermarket heads like Edelbrock, Trick Flow, and others.

I definitely recognize that the heads should be addressed, but haven't come with a good answer.

I have looked at the link you posted, and need to call him. I have read several of his posts on 460ford.com, and he seems to be a great business owner. Plus, anyone that is willing to share tips and tricks on how to port your own heads is a good guy in my book.

I guess to sum it up, I recognize that heads are extremely vital to the build (probably the most important place to spend money). However, I don't want to invest a fortune into this engine and only get mediocre power.

I would much rather get this engine to run reliably with decent power, and then build a horse!

Pro, like stated earlier, I am going to contact Scott at Reincarnation about heads.

I thought I had read one of your posts saying that your heads came from him. If you don't mind me asking, how much did your heads cost? In all honesty, our trucks are pretty similar, aside from which Interco tire we use (mine are 44 in. cut TSL's), and my truck is 4-link all the way around.

Without the spray, is your engine what you were looking for, and what recommendations do you have? I am willing to put good money into an engine, but it needs to be put in the right places.

The more I just talk about it before building it, the more money I save before building. The more money saved, the more I can spend! If this goes on much longer, I may end up buying aluminum heads anyway! Haha!

Thanks for the input, and any info is appreciated.

Adam
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Old 01-22-2009, 05:57 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I can totally understand the need to do a build on the cheap, as well as not wanting to drop bank on heads at this point. Honestly, I'd say your best bet would be to find some Dove heads which you should be able to find dirt cheap, and then port them yourselves. Glad to hear you'll contact Scott, its well worth it.

I don't recall what I payed Scott. This was many years ago before he was the big name he is now, but it wasn't much. To be honest, Doves aren't that hard to come by and the porting isn't that hard to do if you are patient; especially with the great guide Scott put together on his site.

Honestly, my motor was done on the cheap but it still makes people shit their pants. You asked me if it was what "I'm looking for", and to be honest no. But to be honest, I'll never be happy. Every motor I build is bigger and badder but I'm never satisfied. I'm just not sure if thats a good or bad thing
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