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Old 12-19-2012, 07:30 PM   #1 (permalink)
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T18 vs. T19 vs. NP435

I know that the T18 and The T19 are very similar but the T19 is synchronized between first and second gear so the gears don't grind when shifting into second gear from first gear. Is one of these transmissions stronger than the other. I understand that the T18 is simpler to rebuild than a NP435.

How does the NP 435 compare in terms of strength and shifting? I know that first and second gears are a little lower on the NP435.

How is the wide gear spacing going to affect my acceleration to that of an automatic transmission with a torque converter stall matched to my torque curve or a close ratio manual transmission.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:39 PM   #2 (permalink)
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In any of these transmissions the first gear is a granny gear. You drive them like a 3spd, 2nd-4th. I've never used 1st gear driving on the street unless I was messing around for some reason. For the t19 I think the main difference is the synchronized 1st gear. On my t18 you need to be stopped (or very close to it) to shift into first. With the synced 1st in the 19 that shouldn't be the case, but again you don't need first for normal driving. Even offroad I only use first to crawl. If I'm hitting something that will need wheel speed I start in 2nd or 3rd in low range.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:42 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I have had a t18 and an np435. Both are good granny boxes. I think the 435 is about the best shifting 4spd out there.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:57 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I wouldn't trade my NP435 for anything but a comparable 5 or 6 speed.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:06 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Elwenil,
what do you favor about the 5 and six speeds?

Beat95YJ, why does the NP435 shift better than the T18?

Since I will never have a practical reason to shift from first to second gear when the vehicle is in forward motion there is no practical benefit to the synchronized first to second gear.

I see no benefits of the T19 over the T18.

Will all of these transmissions take the same horsepower, torque and abuse?

Last edited by F-150; 12-19-2012 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:14 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I can however get a T19 rebuilt for the same price as a T18.

Can I bolt up any T19 up to the same small block Ford bellhousing as the T18 and can I bolt up any T19 to the same transfercase adapter as the Ford T18?

I am using a Ford NP 205.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:48 PM   #7 (permalink)
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The np435 shifts easier and smoother. Both had rebuilds fwiw.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:56 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Yeah, I've got a T-19 behind a 6.9 IDI and its in nice shape. It shifts good but occasionally I can't find 4th. The NP435 ALWAYS goes into gear and its smooth shifting. I like it alot-
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:14 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Elwenil,
what do you favor about the 5 and six speeds?
Well 5th and 6th gear, naturally. The only problem with the NP435 is it's still just a 4 speed. An NV4500 or NV5600 would have a higher low gear but would also have overdrive.

I agree with Beat95YJ on the NP435 shifting smoother, at least my Dodge NP435 does. I have been in a few Fords that had shifting issues in winter but that may be more related to the fluid in them than anything. In my experience the T18 and T19 can be a pain in the ass for little or no reason.
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:36 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I've never had any shifting issues with my t18, but its a jeep model from a cj5. I've been running it for years and it does need a rebuild now (lost a synchro and it won't stay in 4th gear unless I hold it). I've never driven a 435 so I can't compare.

I don't think any of them would be a bad choice if you are looking for a granny 4spd.
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:04 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I see the merit of the overdrive.

The NV 4500s and ZF 5 speeds, with the exception of the Diesel close ratio ZF 5 speeds, are wide ratios just as the NP435.

At much higher rpms the gears spread becomes effectively wider. This must be the reason for a Toploader close ratio 2.32\1.69\1.29\1.00.

Now I compare that close ratio transmission to wide ratio truck transmissions:
NV 4500
5.61 3.04 1.67 1.00 0.73
6.34, 3.44 1.71 1.00 .73
ZF 5 speed
5.72 2.94 1.61 1.00 0.76

I suspect that these transmissions work with low revving high torque engines.

On a low revving high torque engine would there be any advantage to these close ratios? 2.32\1.69\1.29\1.00? This Bronco will never tow on the street or haul heavy loads.
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:35 AM   #12 (permalink)
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"I don't think any of them would be a bad choice if you are looking for a granny 4spd."

I want a granny 4 speed because they are rugged and cost less than other transmissions.

NP435, LoMax NP205 and 4.30:1 gears.
(6.69)(3)(4.30)=86.3

at 75 mph with 38.5" tires I would be revving 2,815 rpm which I think would be fine for the engine.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:43 PM   #13 (permalink)
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What is realistic gearing for a NP435. I want to pull second gear from a stop without lugging and I want to cruise in 4th gear at a safe rpm that is not going to tear the engine up. I have understood that between 2,000 and 3,000 rpm is good for a V8. This is not gas mileage but simply a safe cruising speed for the engine.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:51 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Can't answer that without knowing your tire size. Gear x 336 ( constant ) x mph, divide by new unloaded tire diameter gives RPM.
Simple example: 3.57 ( SM465 ) x 3.54 ( Dana 70 ) x 336 x 5 = 21231.5 / 33 ( inch tires ) = 643.38 RPM.
To answer your question, look for at least 600 RPM at 5 MPH. I'd rather have at least 750, but then your cruise RPM is much higher than it needs to be.
No V8 needs 2800 RPM to run 75 MPH, except maybe a way-over-cammed 302 ( or 305 or 307 ) and I'd rather have it closer to 2200. A 351W would be happy with that. But without OD, you may not get it that low and still have the 600 at 5 MPH.

Last edited by oldenginebuilder; 12-20-2012 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:54 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-150 View Post
What is realistic gearing for a NP435. I want to pull second gear from a stop without lugging and I want to cruise in 4th gear at a safe rpm that is not going to tear the engine up. I have understood that between 2,000 and 3,000 rpm is good for a V8. This is not gas mileage but simply a safe cruising speed for the engine.
I ran 37's, 4.88's and a v8 with the np435 in my cj 7. If it were driven on the freeway regularly, I would have swapped out the trans for an overdrive trans.
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:12 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Granny, then 1st 2nd 3rd.

I have only experience with the t18 out of your choices, but it shifts like a bread truck, it feels big and heavy duty, not sporty at all.

Granny gear is not sycronyzed. So if you want to put it in granny gear you have to come to a complete (almost) stop. You can shift OUT of granny gear and Into the next gear, (1st gear) while moving no problem.

I have the i6 t18 Dana 20 4.56 36 inch tires. For me this is the lowest gearing I'd want for this engine. Cause at 65 it's really reved out. Cj7
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:46 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Thanks for all the help.

I am planning on running BFG Mud Terrain KM2 38.5" tires.

(5mph)(3.34:1)(4.10:1)(336)
_________________________=597.55636
38.5"

At 75 mph I would be turning 2,684 rpm
At 65 mph I would be turning 2,326 rpm
At 60 mph I would be turning 2.147 rpm

http://www.4lo.com/calc/geartable.php

So it would be a 60-65 mph Bronco.

I drive 60/65 mph about 35% of the time and the rest I drive 70/75 mph.

I think that a perfect 75mph at 2,300 rpm in Bronco is too idealistic. 65 mph with the granny 4 speed is reality.

Last edited by F-150; 12-20-2012 at 05:57 PM. Reason: http://www.4lo.com/calc/geartable.php
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:54 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I understand that lugging the engine around town/city hurts fuel economy more than over revving does on the highway. I don't expect but 8 or 9 mpg around town but if gearing makes a difference of between 4 and 9 mpg then that matters.

According to the gear ratio and tire size charts I should have 4.56:1, 5.13:1 or 5.38:1 gears with 38/39" tires. Which is best for city gas mileage? Again I consider 8 to 9 mpg to normal pickup truck gas mileage and 3 mpg to be out of an idealistic trophy or mud truck. If this EFI 351W gets 3 or 4 mpg then I will sell it and put in a 6.9L diesel but that is off topic.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:02 PM   #19 (permalink)
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2350 RPM at 65 MPH isn't bad. Not ideal, but livable. My experience with that is a 2.73:1 camaro, but same cruise RPM with the Camaro being 26" tires. That was a 350 V8, and could do 18 MPG at low highway speeds. I did try 3.08:1 gears in that exact car, and that raises the cruise RPM to 2600, which was annoying until I swapped mufflers. MPG dropped, even after correcting for speedometer error, by 2 MPG average, but to be fair I was doing more blasts up the on-ramps.
Same deal if you do 4.56:1 gears. Still tolerable at 65 MPH, much better feel away from traffic stops. Your math correctly shows that a 4.10:1 is a minimum acceptable gear for in-town driving with your combo.
Nixer is doing 2800 RPM, and might benefit from quieter mufflers.
I agree it's better to cruise at 200 RPM more than necessary, versus cruising 50 RPM too low, but I felt 2350 was at least 200 more than necessary for said Camaro. With your truck being extra drag, it might be great.

Last edited by oldenginebuilder; 12-20-2012 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:06 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Here is a thread about over revving a 6.9L diesel. The concensus was that fuel economy did suffer above the diesel's 1,800 rpm sweet spot but the engine still returned a long service life.

6.9L IDI and C6, lacking in gears

Would revving a 351W over its 2,200 rpm sweet spot shorten its service life? Of course I know its fuel economy would be off.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:11 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Revving the engine will burn gas faster. If you are worried about mpg, 4.56 would be the better choice.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:14 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Don't look at diesel data if you have a gas engine.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:17 PM   #23 (permalink)
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"Same deal if you do 4.56:1 gears. Still tolerable at 65 MPH, much better feel away from traffic stops. Your math correctly shows that a 4.10:1 is a minimum acceptable gear for in-town driving with your combo.
Nixer is doing 2800 RPM, and might benefit from quieter mufflers."

So running higher gears like 3.55:1 or 3.73:1 with 38.5" tires, would severely lower my gas mileage?

The "ideal" ratios for my tire size of 4.56:1, 5.13:1 and 5.38:1. I wonder which ratio is most efficient for city/town driving?
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:20 PM   #24 (permalink)
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So running higher gears like 3.55:1 or 3.73:1 with 38.5" tires, would severely lower my gas mileage?
No.

Quote:

The "ideal" ratios for my tire size of 4.56:1, 5.13:1 and 5.38:1. I wonder which ratio is most efficient for city/town driving?
4.56.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:22 PM   #25 (permalink)
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In that case the combination of NP435, 4.56:1 and 38.5" tires is quite liveable.

Thanks.

Last edited by F-150; 12-20-2012 at 06:24 PM.
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