ATK (Federal Ammo) Cracking Down on Online Sellers of LE Ammo

[Mudinyeri]

This is sort of old news but I didn't see where it had been posted on OSR. So, I thought I'd do my public service work for the day.

ATK, the company that owns Federal Ammo, is cracking down on online retailers selling their LE lines of ammo. Apparently, ATK has limited LE ammo sales to drop ship to law enforcement departments only. Dealers are only being allowed to stock small quantities.

If you like Federal LE ammo, you may need to contact your favorite dealer to see if they have any "ghost stock". I was looking for some of my favorite 00 Buck and found that my regular supplier had a case in stock that wasn't listed on the website.

For the sake of clarity ... it's Federal Ammo that's cracking down on their retailers, NOT the Federal Government. Although, that wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[PONY_DRIVER]

WGAF? I mean really, they sell a legal product. Is their "LE ammo" something special? Is it something mere mortals should not possess? If it's creating a shortage (an "if" not speculating) then they should bump production.


Companies do some weird shit.

[Slick]

Originally Posted by PONY_DRIVER

Companies do some weird shit.

AND companies do some stupid shit...

When a society's police have privileges and possessions that cannot be had by the citizens who are taxed to pay them - they have become a "police state".

[Dustin Smith]

There is absolutely a shortage, and according to them, they have ramped production as far as they can. Just as an example, my department ordered last years ammo in January 2010, and we still havent gotten it all in,

[Slick]

Originally Posted by Dustin Smith

There is absolutely a shortage, and according to them, they have ramped production as far as they can.

I hope that's the reason, but I have a hard time believing that a company that exists in today's economy can fend off competition if they can't meet the supply expectations of their current customers.

[Dustin Smith]

Thats true...and its happened. We have been all but forced to go with a lesser quality competing brand, just because its available. Shitty ammo you have s tone better than awesome ammo you might get later.

The typical line we are getting from Federal is that they are so busy meeting .gov contract obligations, they cant keep up with everything else. I think its the HK syndrome rearing its head, and will most likely bite them in the ass as soon as these contracts start shrinking.

[redpitbull44]

Regarding Federal LE ammo, specifically their 12 gauge buckshot loads with Flite Control wad, is indeed something special. Not so special that civilians should be exempt from owning it. But it is probably the best patterning buckshot load out there. IMHO, as far as big name ammo goes, Federal does a pretty good job of kicking ass across the board. GMM rifle ammo has been a benchmark standard for ever. Hydra-Shoks have a cult like following, and they do pretty well on keeping their quality high, and their prices reasonable.

I want to clarify that there is no weapon in existence that I think civilians should be exempt from owning. In my mind "Arms" as stated by the 2A means all manner of armament, not just firearms.

As far as their inability to produce enough to meet demand, I call bullshit. I mean, granted, there are mechanical restrictions that prohibit a factory from making more than X amount, then you figure in breakdown and service times, retooling, etc, and the company is likely to get a 75% production rate out of a given machine over the course of said machine's life cycle. That doesn't mean they can't either add on to existing plants to add more machines and produce more, or even better, build new plants with new machines, and produce more. Ok, ok. Factories can't just pop up overnight and start churning out ammo, but still, most companies I have worked for have goals and plans regarding expansion. If they went building factories, they might even make the libtards happy. New jobs and all that.

[Dustin Smith]

Regarding Federal LE ammo, specifically their 12 gauge buckshot loads with Flite Control wad, is indeed something special. Not so special that civilians should be exempt from owning it. But it is probably the best patterning buckshot load out there. IMHO, as far as big name ammo goes, Federal does a pretty good job of kicking ass across the board. GMM rifle ammo has been a benchmark standard for ever. Hydra-Shoks have a cult like following, and they do pretty well on keeping their quality high, and their prices reasonable.

This...all of it. Federal makes the best ammo on the market, across the board. Just wish we could get it.

[FLApathy]

Originally Posted by Slick

When a society's police have privileges and possessions that cannot be had by the citizens who are taxed to pay them - they have become a "police state".

O rly? Does your state grant arrest powers to everybody? And since when did the police not pay taxes? I know for a fact that I do every time I get paid.

I havent paid attention to our ammo... but I know that we are pushing our 'shelf life' for the stuff we have in the mags.

[Sully]

Originally Posted by FLApathy

O rly? Does your state grant arrest powers to everybody? And since when did the police not pay taxes? I know for a fact that I do every time I get paid.

Go buy a Colt 6921 as a representative of your police department. No $200 tax.

Go buy a Colt 6921 as a regular Joe. Pay $200.

[Dustin Smith]

Originally Posted by Sully

Go buy a Colt 6921 as a representative of your police department. No $200 tax.

Go buy a Colt 6921 as a regular Joe. Pay $200.

Negative, it doesn't work that way.

The Agency pays no tax..you cannot buy a gun as an agent, the ownership must be retained by the agency for the FET to be exempted. I cannot order a damn thing as a "representative of my agency," and retain ownership of it. Even back during the AWB when you had to have agency letterhead to buy damn near everything, the FET still applied.

[Sully]

Originally Posted by Dustin Smith

Negative, it doesn't work that way.

The Agency pays no tax..you cannot buy a gun as an agent, the ownership must be retained by the agency for the FET to be exempted. I cannot order a damn thing as a "representative of my agency," and retain ownership of it. Even back during the AWB when you had to have agency letterhead to buy damn near everything, the FET still applied.

No shit.

I'm well aware of how it works, and never suggested you could retain ownership.

The end result is is the same. The police force does NOT pay that tax.

[Dustin Smith]

Its an agency, of course they arent going to pay excise tax...they dont pay taxes on cars, or anything else. Much the same as a church, school, farm, etc....I dont see how this is any degradation of rights present.

Now, if I, as an officer, were exempt from FET, I would see your point, but as it is, I am at a loss.

[MT4Runner]

Originally Posted by Dustin Smith

will most likely bite them in the ass as soon as these contracts start shrinking.

Everyone needs to remember their angst today and be willing to say, "Fuck you, Federal" when they put their products back on the civilian market...and not welcome them with open arms like the prodigal ammo dealer.

[Dustin Smith]

While I agree on principle, this is going to be tough if the other ammo manufacturers dont make some pretty major strides in that time. Nothing on the market can touch Federal's complete line of ammo for quality and performance.

[Mudinyeri]

Supposedly, Hornady's TAP 00 Buck "delivers the tightest patterns of any buckshot on the market". (Their wording in quotes.) I've seen pictures of a couple patterns and they look pretty good. Rumor has it that they're using the same wad as Federal. I have yet to confirm that rumor. Hornady calls it the Versatite wad.

Need to get me some Hornady TAP and check it out.

[Dustin Smith]

Its the same wad design, licensed from the same patentee. The Hornady is very good ammo, but the consistency in patterns is a bit lacking in comparison to the Federal. That being said, it is a very viable alternative.

But, thats only shotgun ammo. No one manufacturer produces such an effective and diverse line as Federal. With Federal, we can get top of the line duty ammo in every single caliber we utilize, in conjunction with excellent training ammo. With no other manufacturer is this true. The one we are currently using is, in my opinion, very unsatisfactory, but it is what was available.

[Mudinyeri]

Dustin, you got me to thinking. (I know - dangerous.) It seems that Hornady has TAP ammo in pretty much every popular caliber. While I haven't shot a lot of it myself I don't know that I've ever heard anything truly bad about Hornady.

From a LE perspective, what does Hornady lack?

Edit: Re-reading your post, Hornady may lack the training ammo.

[MT4Runner]

Originally Posted by Dustin Smith

While I agree on principle, this is going to be tough if the other ammo manufacturers dont make some pretty major strides in that time. Nothing on the market can touch Federal's complete line of ammo for quality and performance.

There is a pretty big civilian self-defense market. It will be a niche that other mfrs will be silly not to fill....but outside of ATK, there's a pretty slim list of "other mfr's".

Oh yeah, they're not the best for everything: Federal brass sucks for reloading!!

[Dustin Smith]

Originally Posted by Mudinyeri

Dustin, you got me to thinking. (I know - dangerous.) It seems that Hornady has TAP ammo in pretty much every popular caliber. While I haven't shot a lot of it myself I don't know that I've ever heard anything truly bad about Hornady.

From a LE perspective, what does Hornady lack?

Edit: Re-reading your post, Hornady may lack the training ammo.

Hornady's TAP ammo lacks one major thing, and thats real world, street level testing. It just isnt prevalent enough in duty use to establish a track record, and from what little testing I have been able to perform it doesnt seem to expand as reliably as the offerings from Federal and Winchester.

Before I am labeled as a Federal nut swinger, let me illustrate my ideal selection if duty ammo. For defensive pistol ammo, I am an unabashed Winchester Ranger fan. Federal HST is a very close second. For shotguns, there is no choice in buckshot but Federal Flite Control, with the Hornady TAP a runner up. 12ga slugs are pretty much wide open for me, as I have been completely satisfied by any number of standard Foster style slugs (I actually get the best accuracy through my 14" 870 with, of all things, Rio 1oz.). In 5.56, I like both the newer Speer (another ATK Brand) 64gr Gold Dot load. Both Winchester and Federal have suitable loads. In .308 circles, Hornady is hard to beat for terminal performance, with Federal GMM reigning supreme as accuracy king.

Its not that I think Federal makes the best of everything, its just that have the best across the board offering.

[FLApathy]

Originally Posted by Sully

No shit.

I'm well aware of how it works, and never suggested you could retain ownership.

The end result is is the same. The police force does NOT pay that tax.

And they dont pay taxes on fuel either. Niether does the school board for that matter. Or the utilities. So now we have a police-school-utilities state oh noes!!

Since we are looking for a stretch, do you expect the military to pay the tax for all of its M4s?

My rifle and everything on it was bought and paid for by me.

Back on topic now, I just checked my stock... I have a mix of Winchester Ranger and Federal... we use white box stuff for quals and practice.

In regards to Hornady... in my area you really dont see it much. When it comes to LE ammo, like Dustin said, its 'the real world testing', especially when the lawyers start to question why you choose such 'deadly ammo'. Alot of small agencies, which there are more than a few, cant afford extensive ballistic testing so they will piggy back off what larger agencies in the area are you using.

[Slick]

Originally Posted by FLApathy

O rly? Does your state grant arrest powers to everybody? And since when did the police not pay taxes? I know for a fact that I do every time I get paid.

I havent paid attention to our ammo... but I know that we are pushing our 'shelf life' for the stuff we have in the mags.

Wow - you sound just like a cop...

If I go to the gun store and buy a magazine for my SIG P226, I get to only have 10-rounds (cops get un-neutered magazines).

If I go into a store and want to buy a Ruger LCP, I'm told "No can do - it's a Saturday night special" (cops can buy them though)

If I go into a store to buy an expanding baton, "I'm sorry, that a felony for you to own". (cops can have them with no restriction).

If I go into a store and want to buy an automatic knife, "Sorry sir - you can only buy an assisted-opening knife that require pressure on the blade to operate. Those one's with the buttons are only for cops".

If I want to speed or commit any driving violation short of DUI - I'm out of luck. But If I become a cop, I just hang my KA4997 license plate frame on my car and even my wife can speed too!

*********************

This is the part where you probably want to step in and tell me that it's my fault for living in a "Police State"...

OK, lets say I drive to Florida. I walk into the store and ask for a threat-level 2A vest because I think our country is going down the shitter so fast that I might need to be able to survive a riot (because the police will probably be home protecting their own families) - I hear "Sorry sir, body armor can only be owned by police".

And that's in YOUR state -^

All I know is that I hope you're still in the academy and have classes to take that will help teach you the laws, because I have an expectation that police who are paid to enforce laws might actually know them...

Oh yeah, if the items I mention seem trivial - that's because I chose to Identify items / issues that do not require a letter on a "police letterhead", only an ID that indicates that I'm police, highway patrol, corrections, park ranger, etc.

Anyways thanks for your service and paying your taxes and be sure to pay attention when they send you to basic law school.

[Dustin Smith]

Wow.

[HighHooder]

I love reading Slick's posts Normally, VERY well thought out and accurate. I might have to donate a red star to the man so he can have his avatar back

[Mudinyeri]

Originally Posted by HighHooder

I love reading Slick's posts Normally, VERY well thought out and accurate. I might have to donate a red star to the man so he can have his avatar back

He lives in a van down by the river. He'll just cash in that red star and go buy drugs.