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Old 03-21-2012, 06:45 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Fla. "Stand Your Ground" author may seek changes

Fla. "Stand Your Ground" author may seek changes

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_16...-seek-changes/

(CBS News) Civil rights leaders kept up the pressure on the police in Sanford, Florida, on Wednesday to arrest George Zimmerman. He's the neighborhood watch captain who shot and killed an unarmed teenager.

Zimmerman claims the shooting was justified, based on a Florida law that allows people to use deadly force to defend themselves, the so-called "Stand Your Ground" law.

CBS News correspondent Jeff Glor reports the law at the center of the shooting was co-sponsored in 2005 by State Representative Dennis Baxley. The legislator says he doesn't have any regrets about creating the law.

"I think it's been a great protection for our people," Baxley said.

The intent of the law was to expand the right to claim self defense beyond the home. It allows a person to "stand his or her ground and meet force with force," "including deadly force" if there's a reasonable belief it's needed to "prevent death or great bodily harm," even if there's a chance to escape.

"We thought the self defense measures that we were talking about really should apply to any law abiding citizen who was doing nothing to harm anyone else," Baxley said.

George Zimmerman claims he was defending himself from Trayvon Martin when he shot the 17-year-old dead last month. Sanford Police say the Florida law prohibited them from arresting Zimmerman.

"Sometimes the application or the interpretation of its use is the problem," Baxley said.

Similar legislation has been passed in 23 other states since 2005. The Tampa Bay Times newspaper found 132 cases in Florida where the law has been invoked; 74 defendants were cleared.

For some of those who have dealt with the law before, the Trayvon Martin case brings back a lot of memories.

"It brought back a lot of bad memories," said Sharon Bostic.

Bostic's 16-year-old son Traveres was sitting in his car in a Sanford parking lot when he was surprised by private armed guards in 2005.

The teen pulled away in his car. The guards shot him in the back and killed him. A Judge dismissed manslaughter charges after the guards claimed Traveres was trying to run them over.

"They should never have passed a law like that. This is not Jesse James and Doc Holliday time," Bostic said.

Baxley said the "Stand Your Ground" law is not set in stone.

"Nothing is ever finished in the legislature; everything can be readdressed," Baxley said.

On Wednesday, Baxley told CBS News that it's time for a new look at "Stand Your Ground."

"We need to look at the circumstances that occurred and see if some kind of legislation is in order," Baxley said.

Baxley says he does not think a wholesale change of the law is needed, but he does say, based on what he knows about the Trayvon Martin case, it should not apply here.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:40 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Yeah defending yourself should not be a crime.

But you may still be required to prove it was self defense.

From the 911 tapes and what little else I heard about this Florida case, sounds like the shooter was following the kid down the street and that escalated things.
Its not like the kid was breaking into shooters house, heck they were not even on his property.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:04 AM   #3 (permalink)
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But you may still be required to prove it was self defense.
No, this should never be required. The prosecution should always have to prove it was not. Arizona had some fucked up case law making you prove your own innocence in the case of a self defense shooting, a few good people went to jail because their lawyers weren't as sharp as the prosecutor.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:20 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Yeah defending yourself should not be a crime.

But you may still be required to prove it was self defense.

From the 911 tapes and what little else I heard about this Florida case, sounds like the shooter was following the kid down the street and that escalated things.
Its not like the kid was breaking into shooters house, heck they were not even on his property.
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No, this should never be required. The prosecution should always have to prove it was not. Arizona had some fucked up case law making you prove your own innocence in the case of a self defense shooting, a few good people went to jail because their lawyers weren't as sharp as the prosecutor.
The prosecution in a criminal case should have to prove to the jury that beyond a reasonable doubt it was not self-defense.

You'd better be able to prove it was self defense; in the inevitable Civil case to follow, the plaintiff's attorney only has to prove a preponderance of evidence. 51% at fault, and you're fully guilty. You better be prepared to prove you were fully innocent. It's still going to cost you $$$$ for your defense attorney to fight to save the rest of your life's savings.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:21 AM   #5 (permalink)
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wouldn't "standing your ground" mean standing your ground, not following someone until there is a confrontation? this statement is based solely on what i have read from the first article posted in the chit chat thread. i don't know if other evidence has showed otherwise as i haven't read any further on that incident.

if someone was following me, even after i tried to allude them, i'd certainly be in a defense mode. maybe the kid was the one that "stood his ground"?
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:29 AM   #6 (permalink)
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The prosecution in a criminal case should have to prove to the jury that beyond a reasonable doubt it was not self-defense.

You'd better be able to prove it was self defense; in the inevitable Civil case to follow, the plaintiff's attorney only has to prove a preponderance of evidence. 51% at fault, and you're fully guilty. You better be prepared to prove you were fully innocent. It's still going to cost you $$$$ for your defense attorney to fight to save the rest of your life's savings.
Better to have a law like the AZ one disallowing a civil case if the shooting was found to be justified.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:43 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:28 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Sorry, made my point poorly.

Like any other crime, they need to prove it was NOT self defense.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:29 PM   #9 (permalink)
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if someone was following me, even after i tried to allude them, i'd certainly be in a defense mode. maybe the kid was the one that "stood his ground"?
this
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:32 PM   #10 (permalink)
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This is going around Fb. I don't know enough to have an opinion, but if these "facts" are accurate, I'm inclined to believe there should be a thorough investigation in the least. I have no inclination to verify any of it.



I don't know if there's a thread in GCC, so this may be a repost.
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:10 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:04 PM   #12 (permalink)
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A little bit more on the stand your ground law and the repercussions of the Zimmerman shooting.


State & Local - POLITICS
'Stand Your Ground Law' at center of unarmed Florida teen shooting


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...teen-shooting/

MIAMI – Florida is among 21 U.S. states with a "Stand Your Ground Law," which gives people wide latitude to use deadly force rather than retreat during a fight. The self-defense law helps explain why a neighborhood watch captain has not been arrested in the shooting death of an unarmed black teenager -- a case that has caused widespread outrage.

The Florida law lets police officers on the scene decide whether they believe the self-defense claim. In many cases, the officers let the courts work out whether the deadly force was justified.

In this case, however, police have said they are confident they did the right thing by not charging 28-year-old George Zimmerman, a white Hispanic.

The shooting's racial overtones have sparked a national debate over whether the shooting was warranted.

Zimmerman told police he was attacked by 17-year-old Trayvon Martin after he had given up chasing the boy and he was returning to his truck. He had a bloody nose and blood on the back of his head, according to police. Martin's family questions Zimmerman's story and believes if their races were reversed, there is no doubt a black shooter would be jailed, even if he claimed self-defense.

"They are making it look like Zimmerman is the victim, and their son is in the grave," Benjamin Crump, attorney for Martin's parents, said of the police. "It's about equal justice."

The U.S. Justice Department and FBI have opened a civil rights investigation, and the local prosecutor has convened a grand jury April 10 to determine whether to charge Zimmerman.

Based on what's publicly known about the case, Michael Siegel, a former federal prosecutor who now directs the Criminal Justice Center and Clinics at the University of Florida law school, said it appears police were too quick to decide whether Zimmerman should be charged. If the evidence is murky, he said the usual practice is to make the arrest and let the court system sort it out.

"The law has definitely shifted and given a signal to law enforcement to be more careful," he said.

"But in a case where the self-defense claim is weak, you would think they would do their job."

In a statement released Wednesday, Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee insisted his officers were "prohibited from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time," including physical evidence that supported Zimmerman's self-defense claim. Lee added that it's now up to prosecutors to determine whether to bring charges.

Under the National Rifle Association-backed law passed in 2005, Florida, unlike most other states, grants immunity from prosecution or arrest to suspects who successfully invoke the "stand your ground" claim. And if a suspect is arrested and charged, a judge can throw out the case well before trial based on a self-defense claim.

Still, it's not enough for Zimmerman or anyone involved in a confrontation to simply claim innocence based on no duty to retreat, said Fordham University law professor Nicholas Johnson.

"By the Florida law, he is not relieved of the traditional and basic requirement of showing that he fairly perceived an imminent deadly threat," Johnson said.

Crump said the teenager was carrying a bag of candy and a can of ice tea he had bought at a nearby convenience store when Zimmerman began following him in his sport utility vehicle. Zimmerman, meanwhile, was armed with a 9mm semiautomatic handgun, which he had a permit to legally carry.

"So the facts that have come out that I have become aware of would tend to indicate he should not be granted immunity," Roger Weeden, an Orlando defense attorney closely following the case, said of Zimmerman.

State figures indicate that justified use of deadly force by private citizens is on the upswing.

Florida Department of Law Enforcement statistics show that before the law was enacted in 2005, there were about 13 justified killings each year by citizens from 2000 to 2005. Between 2006 and 2010, the average has risen to 36 justified killings each year.

Some state lawmakers are questioning whether the law should be revisited.

State Sen. Chris Smith said he is preparing a bill that would not allow a self-defense claim in cases where the shooter appeared to provoke the victim. That could have be a factor in the Martin case, where emergency calls and other evidence show that Zimmerman was following the teenager in his vehicle and approached him aggressively despite specific instructions from police to back off.

Lee said in a statement that the police dispatcher's "suggestion" to Zimmerman that he did not need to follow Martin "is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmermann would be required to follow."

Republican Gov. Rick Scott, who was elected after the law's passage, said he's open to suggestions if the Martin case illustrates problems.

"If there's something wrong with the law that's in place, I think it's important we address it," Scott said Tuesday. "If what's happening is it's being abused, that's not right."
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Old 03-25-2012, 03:08 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Schumer calls for federal probe of 'Stand Your Ground' laws after Florida shooting

Published March 25, 2012

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...est=latestnews

Sen. Chuck Schumer is calling on the Justice Department to investigate so-called "Stand Your Ground" laws following the fatal shooting of an unarmed Florida teen.

The law, a version of which was enacted in Florida in 2005, allows for individuals to use deadly force -- even outside their home -- if they feel threatened.

Since the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, Republican leaders have called the killing a tragedy but argue that the law in question did not actually apply to this case.

Still, Schumer wrote in a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder on Sunday that the laws themselves should be investigated.

"These laws seem to be encouraging vigilantism by allowing individuals to use deadly force as a first resort," Schumer, D-N.Y., said in a statement.

Schumer asked Holder's department to probe whether the laws "are creating more violence than they are preventing," and whether potential murders are "going unprosecuted" because of them.

He estimated that 23 states have some form of this law.

Schumer cited statistics in Florida showing that before the law was approved, the state averaged 12 justifiable homicides per year. The average subsequent to the law's enactment was 33.
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Old 03-25-2012, 03:28 PM   #14 (permalink)
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No, this should never be required. The prosecution should always have to prove it was not. Arizona had some fucked up case law making you prove your own innocence in the case of a self defense shooting, a few good people went to jail because their lawyers weren't as sharp as the prosecutor.
Are you talking (partly) about the dude with the 40s&w reloads and "police grade" pistol that shot two dogs and a dude up on the Rim?

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Old 03-25-2012, 03:46 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Are you talking (partly) about the dude with the 40s&w reloads and "police grade" pistol that shot two dogs and a dude up on the Rim?
I heard a story like that, but it was a 10mm and the guy shot a hill vagrants two aggressive dogs, and the shooter ended up FUCKED and doing time. The other lawyer painted him as a blood thirsty killer because of the 10mm and hollow points he used.

I need to find the story and post it, it'll make ya' sick!

EDIT:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15199221...rail-evidence/
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Old 03-25-2012, 03:57 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Bingo, that's the one.

Interesting how things work.

Granted, he was tried in the liberal hippie capital of AZ.
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Old 03-25-2012, 04:21 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Yep, Fish.

10mm, the prosecutor was allowed to turn the courtroom into a circus complete with field trip.

Mr. Fish is out of jail, and things have been set right as far as I know. But only after the law was changed.
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Old 03-26-2012, 12:03 PM   #18 (permalink)
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interesting, no? :stirpot:
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Old 03-26-2012, 12:12 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I know the local sheriff here told me flat out. "Dead men dont sue and dead men tell no tales. Make my job easy and give me one side to hear"

As far as the Florida thing I dont really have a opinion but, I do feel it needs to be properly investigated to confirm either a clean shoot or a dirty one. then proceed from there.

The Panthers can kiss my ass with their bounty.
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:12 PM   #20 (permalink)
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interesting, no? :stirpot:
i kind of figured as much when i saw the last picture but i wasn't going to go looking for pictures.

none the less, if someone is following me even after i try to ditch them, i'm going to be in a defensive mode. i have not read the law there but i find it hard to believe "stand your ground" has anything to do with chasing, following and/or approaching someone.

the race part of this whole deal is what i am finding the most disturbing. it has nothing to do with race.
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:27 PM   #21 (permalink)
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ayup- but for the media, it is EVERYTHING
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:55 PM   #22 (permalink)
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i kind of figured as much when i saw the last picture but i wasn't going to go looking for pictures.

none the less, if someone is following me even after i try to ditch them, i'm going to be in a defensive mode. i have not read the law there but i find it hard to believe "stand your ground" has anything to do with chasing, following and/or approaching someone.

the race part of this whole deal is what i am finding the most disturbing. it has nothing to do with race.
according to Mr. Zimmerman he was walking back to his SUV when he was attacked.

evidence at the scene suggests a struggle, Mr/ Zimmerman was injured, and now there's a witness claiming he saw Zimmerman on his back taking an ass whooping.

Going to be a lot of embarrassed pundits if his story ends up holding water.
Oh wait, no there won't be, because no one holds the media accountable for the unverified shit they spew.
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Old 03-26-2012, 02:30 PM   #23 (permalink)
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What a cluster fuck.

Who knows what happened. No one will.

Law will always be interpreted or changed when something happens like this. "Flip-flop laws, corporal punishment, camera tickets, etc....." They change with political parties, and the change of wind.

In a couple months they will file for an arrest warrant due to the people demanding one. It is too late for the PD to arrest now or they would be facing a nightmare even worse then what they have now.

People will forget about this when he is arrested. And in three years when the case finally sees a judge for ruling it will be dumped due to lack of evidence. And nothing will be heard about it again.
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Old 03-26-2012, 06:02 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I know the local sheriff here told me flat out. "Dead men dont sue and dead men tell no tales. Make my job easy and give me one side to hear"

As far as the Florida thing I dont really have a opinion but, I do feel it needs to be properly investigated to confirm either a clean shoot or a dirty one. then proceed from there.

The Panthers can kiss my ass with their bounty.
What state is this, if you don't mind?


I also find it odd that I am the only one wondering how Zimmerman came to be in a position to draw and shoot when he was on his back getting whooped. I am fully on the side of the guy who is alive, but that question popped up in my mind immediately after reading the (new) story, and I figured it would get addressed fairly quickly.
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Old 03-26-2012, 06:10 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I also find it odd that I am the only one wondering how Zimmerman came to be in a position to draw and shoot when he was on his back getting whooped. I am fully on the side of the guy who is alive, but that question popped up in my mind immediately after reading the (new) story, and I figured it would get addressed fairly quickly.
Well, people always claim that they train to do exactly that...

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