Anybody use this powder?

[BumpyDodge]

I'm researching different CAS loads and came across this stuff called "Trail Boss" by IMR. It's main claim to fame is that because it's so bulky it impossible to throw a double charge. It supposedly burns very clean. It's shaped like little washers. Anybody try it? Worth it, or should I just stick with Unique?
Link to write-up article

[TheRedHorseman]

Apparently it's good for subsonic rifle loads too, I have yet to try it due to being a ball powder junkie.

[mikey_d05]

Huh, never heard of it. Sort of weird considering my dad swears by IMR stuff for accuracy in most cases when it comes to rifles. It'd certainly be useful considering I'm always overly paranoid about double charging pistol reloads.

How does it compare to Unique in terms of burn speed?

[BumpyDodge]

Originally Posted by mikey_d05

Huh, never heard of it. Sort of weird considering my dad swears by IMR stuff for accuracy in most cases when it comes to rifles. It'd certainly be useful considering I'm always overly paranoid about double charging pistol reloads.

How does it compare to Unique in terms of burn speed?

Hornady's burn rate chart

Volume comparison
http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=37

[SilverZuk]

I've used it with good results.
I don't use it because the cost. You pay for 9 oz (IIRC) what Unique costs per pound.
It is a fairly dirty powder.
If it was equal price per pound, I would buy it again.

I still have a some in the powder drawer, I probably should reload some just to get rid of the rest.

[atblis]

How does that stuff meter?
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big women Cam

[NVScouter]

Originally Posted by atblis

How does that stuff meter?

I'm guessing it is thin like Blue Dot and just slices off. But I see where you are going. Is this powder for reloading idiots that do not have a large enough self preservation instict?

When I reload I always double charge my first load and compare it to a single charge. Then I dump BOTH loads recheck weight thrown and fill up the block. Then a final visual inspection before bullets.

[TheRedHorseman]

Originally Posted by NVScouter

Is this powder for reloading idiots that do not have a large enough self preservation instict?

I'm pretty sure it's geared more towards the CAS guys shooting gallery loads that don't want to put a filler media in the case to prevent detonation issues.

[atblis]

I'm pretty sure it's geared more towards the CAS guys shooting gallery loads that don't want to put a filler media in the case to prevent detonation issues.

The mythical detonation issue that nobody has ever been able to recreate in a laboratory?

Pretty much all of the supposed detonations have been tracked back to reloading issues; overcharges, and or bullet seating depth issues.
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KinkyViolet

[TheRedHorseman]

All the lab testing in the world doesn't mean it's not a good sales pitch.

[atblis]

The sales pitch is still valid, but it's not because of light charges detonating, it's due to the possibility of double/triple charging and not noticing because it doesn't take up much of the case.

You should also get more consistent velocities from a bulkier powder. Load up some light bullseye 38 loads (2.7 gr or so). Chronograph the loads. Tilt the pistol up before firing for some, tilt the pistol down before firing some. You should be able to see get velocities variations this way. Truthful I haven't tried it myself yet. I need to.

The light load bullseye detonation thing is a very interesting reading topic. It was a popular belief for a while. The NRA and Hercules (now Alliant) teamed up to investigate the supposed phenomenon and came to the conclusion it doesn't exist. At the time, there were magazine articles about particular cases of pistol detonations, and I believe they examined the most famous cases, and found the causes. Most involved excessive powder charges.
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brunette girl Cam

[Tim84K10]

I haven't used it, but I've heard it's common with CAS/SASS guys.

[SilverZuk]

Originally Posted by TheRedHorseman

I'm pretty sure it's geared more towards the CAS guys shooting gallery loads that don't want to put a filler media in the case to prevent detonation issues.

Yep, many of those guys have turned their loads down to below minimums.
The small case volume has caused some "short start" detonations and blown guns up. It is scary how little powder some guys use.
The TB has such a higher volume and not position sensitive which makes it much safer.

I use black powder, so I have to have a full case volume. If I want less powder, I have to go with more bullet to take up the space.

[SilverZuk]

Originally Posted by atblis

The mythical detonation issue that nobody has ever been able to recreate in a laboratory?

Pretty much all of the supposed detonations have been tracked back to reloading issues; overcharges, and or bullet seating depth issues.

WRONG! If you read about muzzleloading, you will understand this issue much better. The main thing is don't ever use a position sensitive powder with light loads. You want to recreate "short start" detonation, try some H110. It is one of the worst.

If you don't have good case volume, the powder lays in the cartridge as a trough. Your spark from the primer light the top of the charge, which has a much larger surface area. The detonation occurs when the charge burns from the top down, instead of from the primer toward the bullet. The pressure spike is tremendous and WILL blow the primer from the brass, mash the head stamp, and you have to find a block of wood to beat the bolt open.
Ask me how I know.
IMO, reduced loads are more dangerous than too much powder.
I like a powder that has a good case volume.

As far as metering, it meters OK but not great. You will cut some flakes in a powder measure, though it meters consistently.

[atblis]

f you don't have good case volume, the powder lays in the cartridge as a trough. Your spark from the primer light the top of the charge, which has a much larger surface area. The detonation occurs when the charge burns from the top down, instead of from the primer toward the bullet. The pressure spike is tremendous and WILL blow the primer from the brass, mash the head stamp, and you have to find a block of wood to beat the bolt open.

That's sounds very much like the theories regarding Bullseye from back in the day (that have since been debunked).
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Washington Marijuana Dispensaries

[NVScouter]

Originally Posted by TheRedHorseman

All the lab testing in the world doesn't mean it's not a good sales pitch.

At any given time my bench is holding 15-100# of powder as should any good reloader.

If you are going to play with light loads use an apropriate powder. The best starting point is the Lyman Cast Bullet manual IMHO. Almost all of the Green Dot loads just float around the case and get full length exposure to the primer's spark.

If a CAS person really wanted some pepper popper or cats sneeze loads most any pistol powder recipe can be tampered with to do so. Since most pistol powders are light 6-12gr loads of fast powder anyways.

Just pick up some factory ammo and shake/listen. Then tell me they are all compressed loads that burn rear to bullet with no other exposure.

[SilverZuk]

Originally Posted by atblis

That's sounds very much like the theories regarding Bullseye from back in the day (that have since been debunked).

Get some H110 and cut the minimum load in half and see what happens.
I know from experience that you can have short start detonation.

[NVScouter]

Originally Posted by SilverZuk

Get some H110 and cut the minimum load in half and see what happens.
I know from experience that you can have short start detonation.

H110 is a magnum handgun powder meant for pushing 200+ grain bullets in the 1200-1700FPS range. Why on earth would you use that for a light load?

I'm not saying its not possible...I'm sure it is. However it would take more then the just the average random load to create. I have used as little as .5gr of universal for 180gr bullets screwing around for a estimated 400fps. Bumping that to 2gr increased muzzle blast from pellet gun load to 22LR loud. Pushing that same bullet with 4gr and it was almost 25-35 loud.

H110 and Lil'gun both push a 22 hornet 45gr sp to almost 3Kfps. However H110 is at 42Kcup and the Lil'gun is only at 22Kcup and both use around 12gr of powder. H110 is one of the powders I am always careful of but I do play with it since it is my #1 "hunting load" for my Ruger in 45LC.

[Doc Holiday13]

Originally Posted by atblis

The mythical detonation issue that nobody has ever been able to recreate in a laboratory?

Pretty much all of the supposed detonations have been tracked back to reloading issues; overcharges, and or bullet seating depth issues.

I sorta agree I've done some sub-loads without any issues. I've even mixed powders to get diff results. I believe its more theory, and its sounds good in theory. But I'm only basing my statements of limited experience

[SilverZuk]

Originally Posted by NVScouter

H110 is a magnum handgun powder meant for pushing 200+ grain bullets in the 1200-1700FPS range. Why on earth would you use that for a light load?

So the doubter could find out what it feels like for a gun to blow up in his face.
H110 is a very sensitive powder for case volume. It is about like black powder, you alway make sure the case it full. You can compress it, but don't leave it loose because it will blow up.

I use H110 for 44 mag and 45 colt.

Originally Posted by Doc Holiday13

I sorta agree I've done some sub-loads without any issues. I've even mixed powders to get diff results. I believe its more theory, and its sounds good in theory. But I'm only basing my statements of limited experience

I've been handloading since about 1988.
I've made some mistakes, some dumb, some by the book. Usually the gun was so overbuilt (bolt guns), that it caused no apparent immediate damage. Just blew some dirt back toward me and destroyed brass. I blew a super black hawk up a couple yers ago because my head was up me ass (used Clays Exp instead of Clays). I'm glad it was a Ruger, because the damage was minimized. I figure the cylider splitting would have been bad if it was a Colt copy or weaker cylinder design.

Just because you haven't seen it, or seen it documented - use the gray part between your ears, or you will be using you skull for protection when something goes wrong.

If you vary far from published data, you will find out.
You better dig deep when going into sub loads. Search for "position sensitive powder" to narrow it down. Cowboy Action Shooters are kings of "mouse fart" loads. There are many shooters and guns that suffer consequences each year. One came apart last year at our club. The only one hurt was the timer. He took a piece of the cylinder to the cheek and caused him to bleed.

There are two methods of failure. The first is a squib, where the powder ignites and pushes the bullet into the barrel, breeching the barrel. The next shot blows the gun up. This is from inadequate powder charge.
The second is a short start, as I described.
People always get argumentative and write is off as "Must have double charged that one", "Must have put two bullets in the case", and other theories.
You can look at the brass, and often the gun to see it was a short start.
I highly recommend you read some books about muzzle loading, because a short start is worst case scenario.

Muzzle loading books is where I got the term "short start", because you don't have the ball pushed down on the powder. Black powder is an explosive. If it is not compressed, you have a pipe bomb.
The same principle applies to smokeless, except it is a lot more forgiving than black powder.
One book I read a guy did tests.
He double the powder charge, he used a single powder charge and put two balls in, he put a powder, ball, powder, ball. These caused damage to his test barrel (1/2" piece of pipe with a lead breach and cannon fuse).
The only way he could cause a catastrophic failure was by not pushing the ball all the way down on the powder. He essentially created a pipe bomb.

[NVScouter]

Originally Posted by SilverZuk

So the doubter could find out what it feels like for a gun to blow up in his face.
.

I did some light loads this weekened because of this thread. 1.5-3.25gr of universal and a 200gr .452LRN were fun at 10yards. The 1.5gr would just bounce off a 90# lead brick and got reloaded twice. The 3.25 at least would stick.

I still say if you want a light load go with the most efficent powder possible and work your way down. Magnum powder are a great way to blow your face off.

I just wanted to add this: Please do your own research before loading your ammo. If anybody posts load data use it at your own risk and verify it is safe before loading. Just like SZ said above how he used one powder that was similar to another in name (Clays Express instead of Universal Clays) with dangerous results. This should be a given here but, you never know.

[the stinky truck]

cast bullet shooters some times use slow powders for some what reduced loads.this distorts the base of the bullet less.my load for my 454 is 16gn. of bluedot and 20.5 of aa#9 both about same vel. but the aa#9 has way less pressure and no leading.you must be a very experienced reloader b4 you get here.and trail boss takes up all sorts of room,good idea.this stuff is for what someone said,mouse farts.