sbr vs pistol - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum

cgwfab · 01-13-2009, 07:35 PM

what are the legal differences? i see "pistols" in rifle calibers and rifles in "pistol" calibers...

does it all boil down to have a stock or not?

if so, if you make a rifle that cannot accept a stock, is it then a pistol?

Drunk tank · 01-13-2009, 08:23 PM

basically... yes... if a pistol has a stock, its a SBR. And I believe if a pistol has a forward grip its an AOW

cgwfab · 01-13-2009, 08:31 PM

so, if i take a vz 58 and mill the mounts off for the factory stock and weld up any holes in the back, i should (in therory) not have to extend the barrel out to the legal 16" required for a rifle?

Scott@Rockstomper · 01-13-2009, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgwfab

so, if i take a vz 58 and mill the mounts off for the factory stock and weld up any holes in the back, i should (in therory) not have to extend the barrel out to the legal 16" required for a rifle?

Correct, if you make it so that there is no way to attach a stock, and as long as it doesn't have a foregrip (VZ's don't stock), it's a pistol, and no tax stamp is necessary. A foregrip makes it an AOW, which requires a $200 tax stamp to build or a $5 stamp to transfer. A stock makes it an SBR, $200 to build, $200 to transfer.

Additionally, 922r does not apply to pistols, only rifles, so you don't need compliance parts, either. I think I remember hearing that 922r also does not apply to NFA stuff--IIRC, it was in the context of "compliance parts were more expensive than a tax stamp, so I SBR'd my...." Double check that before taking it as gospel, though.

Jason R · 01-13-2009, 10:01 PM

Correct, 922r does not apply to NFA items. Also, there are many pistols that could be fittted with a foregrip easily (threaded in, change foregrip, etc). For instance, AR pistols could easily have a stock added, but as long as there is no stock on it you're good to go.

You can add a foregrip and AOW or SBR your pistol. However, if it's a AOW you cannot add a stock.

Laws are confusing, and they generally don't make sense!

animator · 01-14-2009, 05:53 AM

The real question is: why go through the effort of milling and welding on a receiver, when you can just as easily weld on a muzzle brake to get you to the legal length?

Seems like a lot of work for not a lot gained.

cgwfab · 01-14-2009, 09:44 AM

i was just using the vz as an example....(mostly because it is sitting in front of me).... i saw the ak pistol in a thread on here a few weeks ago, and it got me thinking about a small weapon that shoots rifle rounds....

aloharover · 01-14-2009, 09:50 AM

Scott and Jason have provided the correct info regarding SBR, AOW, and (22r.

FWIW if you live in a state that allows an SBR, it really is worth it. I am really starting to think that everyone should register at least on AR lower as an SBR.
You can put any upper you want onto the registered lower. i just feel that it's really worth it.

Jason R · 01-14-2009, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aloharover

Scott and Jason have provided the correct info regarding SBR, AOW, and (22r.

FWIW if you live in a state that allows an SBR, it really is worth it. I am really starting to think that everyone should register at least on AR lower as an SBR.
You can put any upper you want onto the registered lower. i just feel that it's really worth it.

I agree.

Unka-Boo · 01-14-2009, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgwfab

so, if i take a vz 58 and mill the mounts off for the factory stock and weld up any holes in the back, i should (in therory) not have to extend the barrel out to the legal 16" required for a rifle?

Depends on how your receiver was sold. If it was logged as a "rifle" you're hosed. If it was logged as a "bare receiver" or "pistol" you can get away with it, but I'd document the build...

Once a rifle, always a rifle.

4in100 · 01-14-2009, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aloharover

Scott and Jason have provided the correct info regarding SBR, AOW, and (22r.

FWIW if you live in a state that allows an SBR, it really is worth it. I am really starting to think that everyone should register at least on AR lower as an SBR.
You can put any upper you want onto the registered lower. i just feel that it's really worth it.

But is there an additional tax for a suppressor once you've done the SBR? Paperwork I'm assuming to be yes as there are other forms.

cgwfab · 01-14-2009, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unka-Boo

Depends on how your receiver was sold. If it was logged as a "rifle" you're hosed. If it was logged as a "bare receiver" or "pistol" you can get away with it, but I'd document the build...

Once a rifle, always a rifle.

what do you mean by document it..

in order to register a SBR, do you just get a form from the ATF, fill it out and send it back with some money or what?

muddawg95yj · 01-14-2009, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4in100

But is there an additional tax for a suppressor once you've done the SBR? Paperwork I'm assuming to be yes as there are other forms.

yes

muddawg95yj · 01-14-2009, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgwfab

what do you mean by document it..

in order to register a SBR, do you just get a form from the ATF, fill it out and send it back with some money or what?

By documenting it, he probably just means have proof that it was never assembled as a rifle first, then as a pistol. This would be considered an SBR.
If you are going to register it as an SBR anyway, it wouldn't matter.

Here is an ATF letter concerning building a pistol from an AR receiver.

http://www.jcweaponry.com/images/ar15/BB.JPG

brcook_00 · 01-14-2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aloharover

FWIW if you live in a state that allows an SBR, it really is worth it. I am really starting to think that everyone should register at least on AR lower as an SBR.
You can put any upper you want onto the registered lower. i just feel that it's really worth it.

I agree with Pete 100%. If I lived in a state that allows SBRs (yet another reason I want to leave Michigan), I would honestly consider registering all 3 of my AR lowers as SBR.

Hell, I'd consider registering my FAL receiver as one, too.

LostIt · 01-14-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aloharover

FWIW if you live in a state that allows an SBR, it really is worth it.

Yes. I'll be registering my AR lower and Saiga 12 as SBRs as soon as I can afford to. I also just mailed off a form 1 for a .22 suppressor and a form 4 for my YHM .308 suppressor

cgwfab · 01-14-2009, 03:15 PM

a shortened saiga 12 would be a SBR and not a AOW?

Gozuki · 01-14-2009, 05:34 PM

It would be an SBS.

4runner · 01-14-2009, 06:33 PM

in order for it to be an AOW, it has to have NEVER had a buttstock attached to it at all. And AOW=$5 transfer rather than $200.

01-13-2009, 07:35 PM	#1 (permalink)
cgwfab Wheeler Join Date: Nov 2006 Member # 82908 Location: South Carolina Posts: 493	sbr vs pistol what are the legal differences? i see "pistols" in rifle calibers and rifles in "pistol" calibers... does it all boil down to have a stock or not? if so, if you make a rifle that cannot accept a stock, is it then a pistol? __________________ buy my 09 KLR50 Buy my F350 Flat Bed

01-13-2009, 08:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
Drunk tank Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Member # 11727 Location: Lakewood, CO Posts: 2,013	basically... yes... if a pistol has a stock, its a SBR. And I believe if a pistol has a forward grip its an AOW __________________ ~Ryan~ If Danger came from the tap, I'd shower in that shit!

01-13-2009, 08:31 PM	#3 (permalink)
cgwfab Wheeler Join Date: Nov 2006 Member # 82908 Location: South Carolina Posts: 493	so, if i take a vz 58 and mill the mounts off for the factory stock and weld up any holes in the back, i should (in therory) not have to extend the barrel out to the legal 16" required for a rifle? __________________ buy my 09 KLR50 Buy my F350 Flat Bed

01-13-2009, 10:01 PM	#5 (permalink)
Jason R Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Member # 11598 Location: USA Posts: 6,063	Correct, 922r does not apply to NFA items. Also, there are many pistols that could be fittted with a foregrip easily (threaded in, change foregrip, etc). For instance, AR pistols could easily have a stock added, but as long as there is no stock on it you're good to go. You can add a foregrip and AOW or SBR your pistol. However, if it's a AOW you cannot add a stock. Laws are confusing, and they generally don't make sense! __________________ This space for rent.

01-14-2009, 05:53 AM	#6 (permalink)
animator Rapey Join Date: Sep 2002 Member # 13701 Location: Plano/Dallas Posts: 4,049	The real question is: why go through the effort of milling and welding on a receiver, when you can just as easily weld on a muzzle brake to get you to the legal length? Seems like a lot of work for not a lot gained. __________________ Think you're a marksman? Test your skills by joining the 200yd Iron Sight Challenge happening NOW in the OSR Forum: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/outdo...-may-31-a.html

01-14-2009, 09:44 AM	#7 (permalink)
cgwfab Wheeler Join Date: Nov 2006 Member # 82908 Location: South Carolina Posts: 493	i was just using the vz as an example....(mostly because it is sitting in front of me).... i saw the ak pistol in a thread on here a few weeks ago, and it got me thinking about a small weapon that shoots rifle rounds.... __________________ buy my 09 KLR50 Buy my F350 Flat Bed

01-14-2009, 09:50 AM	#8 (permalink)
aloharover lets go Squatchen Join Date: Oct 2002 Member # 14561 Posts: 15,847	Scott and Jason have provided the correct info regarding SBR, AOW, and (22r. FWIW if you live in a state that allows an SBR, it really is worth it. I am really starting to think that everyone should register at least on AR lower as an SBR. You can put any upper you want onto the registered lower. i just feel that it's really worth it. __________________ Want to know how I lost 25lbs in 9 weeks? Try INSANITY®. www.beachbodycoach.com/petermhope I love it when a plan comes together Colorado Springs, CO Based FFL-07/SOT

01-14-2009, 03:15 PM	#17 (permalink)
cgwfab Wheeler Join Date: Nov 2006 Member # 82908 Location: South Carolina Posts: 493	a shortened saiga 12 would be a SBR and not a AOW? __________________ buy my 09 KLR50 Buy my F350 Flat Bed

01-14-2009, 06:33 PM	#19 (permalink)
4runner please fix my runner Join Date: May 2000 Member # 946 Location: WTF TX USA Posts: 6,558	in order for it to be an AOW, it has to have NEVER had a buttstock attached to it at all. And AOW=$5 transfer rather than $200. __________________ 4.3runner ---A golf course is a pointless exploitation of a perfectly good rifle range--- buy my ultra rare Omega III presentation rifle special price $42500.00

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