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Old 07-14-2009, 05:11 PM   #1 (permalink)
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What do you guys do about dumbass shooters?

Or, what's my liability if someone in my group does something dumb and shoots themselves?

A couple weeks ago my girlfriend and I went camping with a big group of friends, most of whom are shooters. We went up into the woods where it's safe (and legal), and no more than 5 minutes after doing my safety spiel, one of the girls in the group, while shooting my girlfriend's P22, has a misfire (or something) and proceeds to look down the barrel to check it . Of course, the gun "just goes off" and she narrowly misses getting shot in the head.

We called cease fire, and I pulled her aside, gave her the safety rules again, showed her how to work the gun (incidentally, this P22 used to belong to her before she sold it to my girlfriend, and this girl is normally very safe while shooting), and after she calmed down, I let her resume shooting. I made it clear to everyone in the group that if they had any issue with their gun, put it on safe, bring it to me, and I'll help. There were no other incidents for the rest of the day.

But, this has been kind of weighing on me a little bit. What I don't want to happen is for someone to get hurt/dead and I, as the de facto "leader," get sued or prosecuted. Beyond the usual safety speech before shooting and ensuring everyone knows the proper operation of whatever gun they're shooting (we all kind of share and let others shoot our weapons), I'm not sure what else I can do to make the situation safer for everyone.

What say the PBB? Would you have cut her off for the rest of the day? Would you have just said "fuck it" and gone home?

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Old 07-14-2009, 05:35 PM   #2 (permalink)
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i would of started drinking heavily. then i would of smacked her in the face and told her "think of how much more that would of hurt if it was a bullet!!!!" ha, ha, ha!(joking) i too get put towards the safety guy role whem we go shoosting. its a tough call cause you dont want to let it go buy with no repercussions and at the same time you dont want to be a dick, because they are youre friends. i would have been the dick and stoped it all and made a group presentation and explained why you were being a ''dick'' about it. no one wants to see a buddy get hurt. then i would of gave her a few rundowns of what not to do.....again. and kept a close eye on her. if you just stop her from the shoosting, you really arent helping her get more comfy with all the things that can happen. if you cant practice, you will never learn..... thats with anything.
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Old 07-14-2009, 06:15 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I would start by not taking everyone and their brother shooting with me.
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Old 07-14-2009, 06:22 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Or, what's my liability if someone in my group does something dumb and shoots themselves?

A couple weeks ago my girlfriend and I went camping with a big group of friends, most of whom are shooters. We went up into the woods where it's safe (and legal), and no more than 5 minutes after doing my safety spiel, one of the girls in the group, while shooting my girlfriend's P22, has a misfire (or something) and proceeds to look down the barrel to check it . Of course, the gun "just goes off" and she narrowly misses getting shot in the head.
We called cease fire, and I pulled her aside, gave her the safety rules again, showed her how to work the gun (incidentally, this P22 used to belong to her before she sold it to my girlfriend, and this girl is normally very safe while shooting), and after she calmed down, I let her resume shooting. I made it clear to everyone in the group that if they had any issue with their gun, put it on safe, bring it to me, and I'll help. There were no other incidents for the rest of the day.

But, this has been kind of weighing on me a little bit. What I don't want to happen is for someone to get hurt/dead and I, as the de facto "leader," get sued or prosecuted. Beyond the usual safety speech before shooting and ensuring everyone knows the proper operation of whatever gun they're shooting (we all kind of share and let others shoot our weapons), I'm not sure what else I can do to make the situation safer for everyone.

What say the PBB? Would you have cut her off for the rest of the day? Would you have just said "fuck it" and gone home?

, .....what I would do is not even close to what you did, I can't even form words to reply to that post..wtf?
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Old 07-14-2009, 06:26 PM   #5 (permalink)
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If I take a new shooter out, they don't shoot unless I am standing over their shoulder. Sounds like a dick way to be, but it's not only for safety, if you disguise it as helping them shoot better (stance, grip, watching for a flinch, etc) it takes some of the pressure off. They do something unsafe, you are close enough to stop it, and then explain exactly what happened as well as the possible reprecussions had you not stopped it.

You have to think like a teacher.

Now, that all doesn't mean you don't get to shoot, take turns, be an example, etc.
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Old 07-14-2009, 06:28 PM   #6 (permalink)
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the drinking and smacking idea, is no good?
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Old 07-14-2009, 06:37 PM   #7 (permalink)
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1 mentor per n00b shooter has always worked well for me. Sometimes, this isn't possible, but try to keep the ratio as close to 1:1 as possible. If it had been me, she would have been done with shooting for the day.
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Old 07-14-2009, 07:16 PM   #8 (permalink)
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When I take my friends only one person shoots at a time. They all get the safety speech and a thorough demonstration as a group before handling the gun and then I ask them what to do when it's their turn to shoot. If they don't remember right off the bat I walk them through it with the gun in their hands so it's more familiar to them.

After an accident like that, I don't know what I woulda done. I think I woulda told her she's lucky, and let that be a lesson.

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Old 07-14-2009, 07:54 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I would start by not taking everyone and their brother shooting with me.

I agree.
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Old 07-14-2009, 07:57 PM   #10 (permalink)
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crap, I just invited 50 of you gun idiots to go shooting with me next month...
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Old 07-14-2009, 08:01 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I would start by not taking everyone and their brother shooting with me.
When I go shooting the max that goes is 3 people, including myself. It works out well that that's how many seats are in my truck (and my Jetta to, once I lay down the back seat to slide through rifle cases haha)
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Old 07-14-2009, 08:34 PM   #12 (permalink)
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crap, I just invited 50 of you gun idiots to go shooting with me next month...


Yep... might want to have an EMT or two on site....
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Old 07-14-2009, 09:03 PM   #13 (permalink)
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crap, I just invited 50 of you gun idiots to go shooting with me next month...
Oh shit... 50 people?

Need to order more beer...
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Old 07-14-2009, 09:15 PM   #14 (permalink)
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i just had this conversation with someone last night.

when i am taking new shooters to our range, i give them the full safety speech. and i make sure even the experienced shooters who are there, listen also. you can never hear it too much or too often.

if something happens, sweeping someone with a muzzle, heading down range too quickly... i have found a stern ass-chewing, no matter how embarrassing, will do the trick. they might hate my guts after i rip them a new ass in front of everyone but if it keeps someone from making another mistake and killing someone and ruining that life and their own, then its totally worth it a hundred times over.

at that point i hope that everytime they pick up a gun they are reminded of the incident they were embarrassed and took a good ass-chewing, see my face, and remember not to do what they did ever again. and these are guys that are paying high dollar to hunt with me and be hosted on a nice ranch!

i say you can never ever be too careful with a gun... the second you lose respect for it is the second you could lose your life or take someone elses.... there was a good freind of my family who lost his life in a shooting accident and his 14 yr old son at the time, had to watch him die. you dont ever recover from seeing something like that, i know that kid didnt.
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Old 07-14-2009, 09:46 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I would start by not taking everyone and their brother shooting with me.
Yeah, lesson learned on that one. We had two lanes going, one shooting at paper, one shooting at cans (which we cleaned up). Most of these people are not rookies by any means, but even so, I probably should have done a better job ensuring everyone had heard the opening safety speech. In hindsight, fewer people and only one lane would be the way to go.

As it was, I had seen this girl shoot before, and she has owned a number of guns, so I thought she was experienced enough not to do something that stupid. Obviously I was wrong. At least she seemed to learn her lesson, and when her SW99C jammed she brought it over to me to take a look at instead of pointing it at her head ...

I'm going to steal your idea, kwranglin, of standing over other shooters' shoulders until I'm absolutely sure of their level of skill. 'Course, with a P22, that means catching brass in your face

To clear up my post, Seabass, I'm not sure what happened to cause the gun not to fire, because I obviously didn't get a chance to inspect the weapon and round's condition before it fired. Whether it was the safety still being on (and subsequent disengagement and ND), something like a light primer strike, or whether the ridiculously-long DA trigger pull threw her off is hard to say. After the ND, she was a little shaken (I certainly would be), but we went over the safety rules again, and from her performance the rest of the day, it seemed like she gained some newfound respect for the weapons. Apologies if I wasn't clear about what happened.
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Old 07-14-2009, 09:48 PM   #16 (permalink)
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and proceeds to look down the barrel to check it . Of course, the gun "just goes off" and she narrowly misses getting shot in the head.
She is done. Not to touch any of my guns and not in my prescence. Ever again. I might have packed up and left over it.
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Old 07-14-2009, 09:53 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Yeah, lesson learned on that one. We had two lanes going, one shooting at paper, one shooting at cans (which we cleaned up). Most of these people are not rookies by any means, but even so, I probably should have done a better job ensuring everyone had heard the opening safety speech. In hindsight, fewer people and only one lane would be the way to go.

As it was, I had seen this girl shoot before, and she has owned a number of guns, so I thought she was experienced enough not to do something that stupid. Obviously I was wrong. At least she seemed to learn her lesson, and when her SW99C jammed she brought it over to me to take a look at instead of pointing it at her head ...

I'm going to steal your idea, kwranglin, of standing over other shooters' shoulders until I'm absolutely sure of their level of skill. 'Course, with a P22, that means catching brass in your face

To clear up my post, Seabass, I'm not sure what happened to cause the gun not to fire, because I obviously didn't get a chance to inspect the weapon and round's condition before it fired. Whether it was the safety still being on (and subsequent disengagement and ND), something like a light primer strike, or whether the ridiculously-long DA trigger pull threw her off is hard to say. After the ND, she was a little shaken (I certainly would be), but we went over the safety rules again, and from her performance the rest of the day, it seemed like she gained some newfound respect for the weapons. Apologies if I wasn't clear about what happened.
she pointed a gun at her head to look for a bullet, & nearly shot herself, you were clear.
she is too stupid to be around any firearm, sorry to sound harsh. it is what it is.
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Old 07-14-2009, 09:58 PM   #18 (permalink)
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19 years ago when I was 15 and hunting with my bestfriend and his family there was a fatal self inflicted accident and my friend's life ended at 15. It took a couple years but I made way back to hunting and shooting sports. These days I am hesitant to shoot informally in a group larger than 2 or 3. If there is an inexperienced shooter present they receive instruction and undivided attention. If I had someone do something unsafe like that their day would be over without a doubt.
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:00 PM   #19 (permalink)
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19 years ago when I was 15 and hunting with my bestfriend and his family there was a fatal self inflicted accident and my friend's life ended at 15. It took a couple years but I made way back to hunting and shooting sports. These days I am hesitant to shoot informally in a group larger than 2 or 3. If there is an inexperienced shooter present they receive instruction and undivided attention. If I had someone do something unsafe like that their day would be over without a doubt.
I am very sorry for your loss
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:13 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I am very sorry for your loss
Thanks, lots of joking goes on around these parts but gun saftey and familiarity with your firearms are dead serious.

Harsh as it may sound I think Seabass is right on the money, anyone who would look down the barrel of a malfunctioning firearm simply does not posses the mentallity to be around a loaded weapon.
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:27 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I was at a public range one day when a family came to shoot some pistols. I watched the guy try to fire a single-action pistol without first cocking the hammer.

He squeezed the trigger (flinching enough to probably miss had it fired), and when nothing happened, he rotated the gun up, finger still on the trigger, and looked directly at the gun, which was now pointing directly at his face.


I packed up and went home.
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:47 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I was at a public range one day when a family came to shoot some pistols. I watched the guy try to fire a single-action pistol without first cocking the hammer.

He squeezed the trigger (flinching enough to probably miss had it fired), and when nothing happened, he rotated the gun up, finger still on the trigger, and looked directly at the gun, which was now pointing directly at his face.


I packed up and went home.
I don't shoot at the range
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Old 07-14-2009, 11:17 PM   #23 (permalink)
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19 years ago when I was 15 and hunting with my bestfriend and his family there was a fatal self inflicted accident and my friend's life ended at 15. It took a couple years but I made way back to hunting and shooting sports. These days I am hesitant to shoot informally in a group larger than 2 or 3. If there is an inexperienced shooter present they receive instruction and undivided attention. If I had someone do something unsafe like that their day would be over without a doubt.
Very sorry to hear about your friend.

This is exactly why I asked for the input of the minds of the PBB, to avoid this ever happening to any of my friends, at least with me around. She won't be shooting with us again.
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Old 07-14-2009, 11:26 PM   #24 (permalink)
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When I go shooting the max that goes is 3 people, including myself. It works out well that that's how many seats are in my truck (and my Jetta to, once I lay down the back seat to slide through rifle cases haha)
haha, you drive a jetta. but this ain't about being .

ever seen a noob fire a couple shots from a semi auto, then turn their head to look at someone, and now the gun is pointed at someone else ready to waste them? i have. just a bit scary, so i say a very small group and a highly alert instructor.
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Old 07-15-2009, 03:53 AM   #25 (permalink)
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I feel your pain. Any time I go to the range there are several people there, normally renters, that don't know the first thing about weapons handling and even function of the weapon they are using. I suppose it is the RSO's business, but I always make a point to intervene when I see violations of the 4 (5) rules and either stop the shooter or notify the RSO. I suppose it's just the Marine in me but it makes me sick.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for the 2nd and CCW, but to think there are incompetent people CCWing is sort of a scary thought for me. I tend to agree with some states' policies where a course is required to CCW. While I think it should be state funded, etc, people should have some type of formal training.
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