AFG - huh? - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > Miscellaneous > Outdoor Sports and Recreation
Notices

Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-28-2009, 06:32 PM   #1 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
Weasel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Member # 5639
Location: Rapid City, SD
Posts: 6,625
Blog Entries: 1
AFG - huh?

Was looking through the site that had the 10 dollar Pmags and saw this.

http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/600.php

Quote:
The primary difference between the AFG and standard vertical foregrips is weapon controllability. This is a direct result of hand position, grip style and body mechanics. Below is a detailed description of the Theory behind the AFG.
Never heard of it or the concept. So does it work or is it a gimick?
__________________

Experience is what you get 30 seconds after you need it

Just Add Lightness
Weasel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2009, 07:01 PM   #2 (permalink)
Runner? What runner?
 
4runner's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Member # 946
Location: WTF TX USA
Posts: 6,843
Send a message via AIM to 4runner
sales BS...anything new under the sun sells great for a while, then tapers off, while the next "new" item comes to the spotlight.
__________________
4.3runner
4runner is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 12-28-2009, 07:25 PM   #3 (permalink)
I sell guns...
 
fj40john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Member # 14560
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 2,909
Send a message via AIM to fj40john Send a message via Yahoo to fj40john
I dig the idea, but I am generally not a rifle shooter, so they tend to feel awkward to me. That thing look like it would keep me from contorting my hand/wrist to hang on to the front end of the gun.

Couldn't care less about all of the "science" behind it.
__________________
John W.
07FFL/02SOT TXCHL Instructor
john@flyingbrassarmory.com

Facebook! If you are from the PBB, send me a message with your screen name so I know who you are.


All things NFA explained here...


BUY MY GUNS!!!
fj40john is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2009, 07:39 PM   #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Member # 57353
Location: PDX
Posts: 550
I don't know a whole lot about "supinus supermarket" muscles or whatever, but I know that that slideshow they have at the bottom of the page looks like about seven slides of marketing bullshit to me. The "sword analogy" in particular is world-class bullshit.

They'll sell millions.
TheAlmightySam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2009, 08:33 PM   #5 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
Weasel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Member # 5639
Location: Rapid City, SD
Posts: 6,625
Blog Entries: 1
well sure it's a magpul gotta be great right? :P

I do understand their theory behind it with the muscle but not sure it's accurate.
__________________

Experience is what you get 30 seconds after you need it

Just Add Lightness
Weasel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2009, 09:53 PM   #6 (permalink)
CMF
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Member # 36775
Location: Nashville
Posts: 194
Looks like the hand is in the same position as the stop


Last edited by CMF; 12-28-2009 at 09:54 PM.
CMF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2009, 10:42 PM   #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Member # 87150
Location: 1000 Oaks
Posts: 2,649
Tried an AR that had one at the range, felt like a really bulky hand-guard. So, I could shoot it better than a vertical fore-grip, but not as good as a regular rifle without the AFG.
maxyedor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 06:53 AM   #8 (permalink)
I build stuff
 
aloharover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Member # 14561
Location: Just outside the evac zone
Posts: 16,692
I just do not understand the idea of having the none firing arm that far out. It seems uncomfortable and un-natural to me.
It also goes against the fundemental of "Solid Support".
Using the grip shown (actually any of them) you are relying on muscle support for the weapon instead of bone.
__________________

Want to know how I lost 45lbs? Try INSANITYŽ.
www.beachbodycoach.com/petermhope

"I wake up in the morning and piss excellence"

Colorado Springs, CO Based FFL-07/SOT
aloharover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 07:47 AM   #9 (permalink)
Doublewide engineer
 
kwrangln's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Member # 6971
Location: Gulf coast
Posts: 5,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by aloharover View Post
I just do not understand the idea of having the none firing arm that far out. It seems uncomfortable and un-natural to me.
It also goes against the fundemental of "Solid Support".
Using the grip shown (actually any of them) you are relying on muscle support for the weapon instead of bone.
The concept isn't for long range shooting where you need that bone on bone support, it's more for short range hosing. The gamer crowd has been shooting that way for a while now as the extension on the support side helps drive the muzzle from target to target.

I've been researching stuff on different grips and stances for a couple months now and trying different things to see what works best for me, and so far extending the support hand out to the muzzle makes a difference for me in control. Another biggie is getting the stock out of the shoulder pocket and moving it more towards the centerline of the body actually sitting on the pectoral muscle. Recoil is going to turn your shoulder into a lever rotating around your spine, the further out, the more movement there is.

I haven't tried this AFG thingy yet, and honestly, probably won't, but there are different techniques out there and this plays into one of them.

We've come a long way from the ole chicken wing shooting stance.
__________________
I'm the "tack tack tack" welding nazi.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showp...&postcount=218


"I didn't mean to kill nobody ... I just meant to shoot the sonofabitch in the head. Him dying was between him and the Lord." R. L. Burnside
kwrangln is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 08:25 AM   #10 (permalink)
I build stuff
 
aloharover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Member # 14561
Location: Just outside the evac zone
Posts: 16,692
Out to what range are they doing this? I must drink too much coffee, I can't see doing this beyond 75-100m.

Does it have a practical use or games only?

I don't chicken wing . I keep both elbows tucked in close to my sides.
__________________

Want to know how I lost 45lbs? Try INSANITYŽ.
www.beachbodycoach.com/petermhope

"I wake up in the morning and piss excellence"

Colorado Springs, CO Based FFL-07/SOT
aloharover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 08:58 AM   #11 (permalink)
Doublewide engineer
 
kwrangln's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Member # 6971
Location: Gulf coast
Posts: 5,901
75-100 at the outside sounds about right, probably closer though. If I have to shoot at 100, I'm going to be finding a more stable platform either by bracing up on something, or another stance. It's definatly not for shooting little groups.

It's being touted as tactical shooting by many of the carbine classes these days.

If you get bored, dig around on youtube for 3 gun vids as well as some of the tactical class vids and check out some different techniques. It seems like in the last few years there is a lot more focus on ergonomics and body mechanics to improve performance.
__________________
I'm the "tack tack tack" welding nazi.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showp...&postcount=218


"I didn't mean to kill nobody ... I just meant to shoot the sonofabitch in the head. Him dying was between him and the Lord." R. L. Burnside
kwrangln is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 09:16 AM   #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Member # 13467
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana
Posts: 3,736
The guy in this vid uses a similar grip. Vid taken from TNToy's Sweet Comp Video thread.

YouTube - VTAC 1-5 Rifle Drill
__________________
[QUOTE=Willyswanter's Dad;8398776]I'm trying to find spinner caps that will fit the wheels so when I'm stuck it will look as though I'm still wheeling[/QUOTE]
Ben Segrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 09:44 AM   #13 (permalink)
Doublewide engineer
 
kwrangln's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Member # 6971
Location: Gulf coast
Posts: 5,901
I'm betting TRH's head implodes when he sees this thread.
__________________
I'm the "tack tack tack" welding nazi.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showp...&postcount=218


"I didn't mean to kill nobody ... I just meant to shoot the sonofabitch in the head. Him dying was between him and the Lord." R. L. Burnside
kwrangln is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 09:53 AM   #14 (permalink)
I build stuff
 
aloharover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Member # 14561
Location: Just outside the evac zone
Posts: 16,692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Segrest View Post
The guy in this vid uses a similar grip. Vid taken from TNToy's Sweet Comp Video thread.
l]
Wow I missed that one. I though all the thread had were psitol videos.

VTAC has posted. a number of good videos
__________________

Want to know how I lost 45lbs? Try INSANITYŽ.
www.beachbodycoach.com/petermhope

"I wake up in the morning and piss excellence"

Colorado Springs, CO Based FFL-07/SOT
aloharover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 10:29 AM   #15 (permalink)
Juggernaut
 
Camarogenius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Member # 49232
Location: Longview, TX
Posts: 2,480
Send a message via Yahoo to Camarogenius
I just scanned the replies, so kick my ass if it's already been posted.

What kind of candy-assed pussies infest the gun culture, that they think they need bullshit like this to control a 5.56? Tacticool mall ninja bullshitters do the firearms culture way more harm than their few votes, and occasional petition signatures could ever offset.
__________________
"The more you overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drains."- Scotty Ponder the ramifications of that.
Camarogenius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 11:03 AM   #16 (permalink)
Doublewide engineer
 
kwrangln's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Member # 6971
Location: Gulf coast
Posts: 5,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camarogenius View Post
I just scanned the replies, so kick my ass if it's already been posted.

What kind of candy-assed pussies infest the gun culture, that they think they need bullshit like this to control a 5.56? Tacticool mall ninja bullshitters do the firearms culture way more harm than their few votes, and occasional petition signatures could ever offset.
So I'm guessing you think running a compensator on a 5.56 is a joke as well huh?

Watch the vid above, then let us know when you can shoot a 5.56 that fast with some degree of accuracy.

We'll be eagerly awaiting your return.



It's not about the asskickin recoil of the 5.56, it's about muzzle movement, and keeping the muzzle in exactly the same place between shots, even if those shots are happening as fast as you can move your trigger finger. Technique and tools help, it aint your daddy's shotgun and we're not talking about slowfire matches where you have time for tea and scones between shots.
__________________
I'm the "tack tack tack" welding nazi.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showp...&postcount=218


"I didn't mean to kill nobody ... I just meant to shoot the sonofabitch in the head. Him dying was between him and the Lord." R. L. Burnside
kwrangln is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 02:22 PM   #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
blkntancj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Member # 39016
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 389
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwrangln View Post
So I'm guessing you think running a compensator on a 5.56 is a joke as well huh?

Watch the vid above, then let us know when you can shoot a 5.56 that fast with some degree of accuracy.

We'll be eagerly awaiting your return.



It's not about the asskickin recoil of the 5.56, it's about muzzle movement, and keeping the muzzle in exactly the same place between shots, even if those shots are happening as fast as you can move your trigger finger. Technique and tools help, it aint your daddy's shotgun and we're not talking about slowfire matches where you have time for tea and scones between shots.
X2. This is for CQB work, not sitting at the 100 yard line on your local shooting range. There is a big difference between controlling recoil from a stationary position and controlling your muzzle while rapidly moving through and clearing rooms in a structure while shooting on the move.
__________________
Homicide: Our day begins when yours ends

"Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"
LT. GEN. LEWIS "CHESTY" PULLER, USMC
blkntancj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 02:46 PM   #18 (permalink)
Doublewide engineer
 
kwrangln's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Member # 6971
Location: Gulf coast
Posts: 5,901
YouTube - Noveske Shooting Team at the Steel City Tactical Rifle Match 2009


__________________
I'm the "tack tack tack" welding nazi.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showp...&postcount=218


"I didn't mean to kill nobody ... I just meant to shoot the sonofabitch in the head. Him dying was between him and the Lord." R. L. Burnside
kwrangln is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 06:11 PM   #19 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
Weasel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Member # 5639
Location: Rapid City, SD
Posts: 6,625
Blog Entries: 1
For me it doesn't seem like it would be really effective. I have shorter arms so I don't have the leverage by streching my forarm out to the end of the hand gaurd. It would seem that controlling muzzle movement would be easier with the vertical grip due to hows the hand is position, fist under the weapon and vertical, rather then horizontal?
__________________

Experience is what you get 30 seconds after you need it

Just Add Lightness
Weasel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 06:47 PM   #20 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Member # 19615
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 1,597
Send a message via AIM to afroman006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camarogenius View Post
I just scanned the replies, so kick my ass if it's already been posted.

What kind of candy-assed pussies infest the gun culture, that they think they need bullshit like this to control a 5.56? Tacticool mall ninja bullshitters do the firearms culture way more harm than their few votes, and occasional petition signatures could ever offset.
Seeing as how you probably dont do anything fast, muchless shoot fast, we shouldnt be suprised at this. I'm sure you can accurately shoot 2 AR's with each hand and one with your dick faster than FA but, do you even own an AR? Its not too big of a stretch to assume you've never shot or even attended a carbine or 3 gun match.

With that said, I like a plain ol' smooth handguard. Some of Magpul's stuff is neat though
__________________
Texas A&M Offroad
84 Chevy -Pigpen- Best trail truck there ever was...
afroman006 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 07:41 PM   #21 (permalink)
Doublewide engineer
 
kwrangln's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Member # 6971
Location: Gulf coast
Posts: 5,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasel View Post
For me it doesn't seem like it would be really effective. I have shorter arms so I don't have the leverage by streching my forarm out to the end of the hand gaurd. It would seem that controlling muzzle movement would be easier with the vertical grip due to hows the hand is position, fist under the weapon and vertical, rather then horizontal?

Here's an exercise for ya. Give your girl or kid a hammer and have them drive a nail. While they are doing it, look at where they are holding the hammer.

Without a doubt they are holding it right up against the head of the hammer. Why? Because they have more control as to where the hammer hits that way. The same thing applies to guns, it's why when folks talk about shooting fast they talk about things like having a low bore axis. The lower the bore is to your hands, the more control you have over it, be it a pistol or a rifle the same thing applies. The further your hands are away from the bore, the longer the lever is that recoil can use to move the gun in your hands leading to less control for follow up shots.

Give a man a big enough lever, and he can move the world.
__________________
I'm the "tack tack tack" welding nazi.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showp...&postcount=218


"I didn't mean to kill nobody ... I just meant to shoot the sonofabitch in the head. Him dying was between him and the Lord." R. L. Burnside
kwrangln is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 08:42 PM   #22 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
Weasel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Member # 5639
Location: Rapid City, SD
Posts: 6,625
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwrangln View Post
Here's an exercise for ya. Give your girl or kid a hammer and have them drive a nail. While they are doing it, look at where they are holding the hammer.

Without a doubt they are holding it right up against the head of the hammer. Why? Because they have more control as to where the hammer hits that way. The same thing applies to guns, it's why when folks talk about shooting fast they talk about things like having a low bore axis. The lower the bore is to your hands, the more control you have over it, be it a pistol or a rifle the same thing applies. The further your hands are away from the bore, the longer the lever is that recoil can use to move the gun in your hands leading to less control for follow up shots.

Give a man a big enough lever, and he can move the world.
well thanks for that. How about you hold the hammer along side the head at full extension and try to drive a nail. Now hold it directly under the head along the handle and try the same nail at full extension. I think the handle will be easier to control. If you have the arm length then along the bore would work, I don't have long lever arms.
__________________

Experience is what you get 30 seconds after you need it

Just Add Lightness
Weasel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 09:00 PM   #23 (permalink)
Doublewide engineer
 
kwrangln's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Member # 6971
Location: Gulf coast
Posts: 5,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasel View Post
well thanks for that. How about you hold the hammer along side the head at full extension and try to drive a nail. Now hold it directly under the head along the handle and try the same nail at full extension. I think the handle will be easier to control. If you have the arm length then along the bore would work, I don't have long lever arms.

Damn dude, you are talking about arm length, I'm talking about holding on to that broomstick under the barrel.

Unless you are some kind of T-rex mutant, you'll be better off sticking your support arm out there as far as you can instead of holding on to the magwell. Not saying you have to be able to touch the flash hider on an SBR, just do what ya can.

I learned to shoot offhand in a very traditional stance like the one below.


So naturally when I got my AR I took the same stance and did just fine shooting at paper trying to shoot small. Damn hard to transition targets like that though, so I opened up a bit pushing the support hand out as far as the carbine length handguards would allow, much mo bettah. Then I put rifle length guards on and damn it makes a difference. I dont lock out my elbow, but get as much reach as I can. Providing you can reach the pockets in your pants you can do it too.

There is of course more than one way to skin a cat, but keep your mind open, try different things, you may be suprised.
__________________
I'm the "tack tack tack" welding nazi.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showp...&postcount=218


"I didn't mean to kill nobody ... I just meant to shoot the sonofabitch in the head. Him dying was between him and the Lord." R. L. Burnside
kwrangln is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2009, 07:44 AM   #24 (permalink)
I build stuff
 
aloharover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Member # 14561
Location: Just outside the evac zone
Posts: 16,692
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwrangln View Post
Providing you can reach the pockets in your pants you can do it too.
He might be a gangsta with his pants down around his knees yoyoyo
__________________

Want to know how I lost 45lbs? Try INSANITYŽ.
www.beachbodycoach.com/petermhope

"I wake up in the morning and piss excellence"

Colorado Springs, CO Based FFL-07/SOT
aloharover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2009, 07:45 AM   #25 (permalink)
I build stuff
 
aloharover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Member # 14561
Location: Just outside the evac zone
Posts: 16,692
The guy in the mostly green upper half shirt with blue arm pits... I am surprised by how high he has his scope mounted.
__________________

Want to know how I lost 45lbs? Try INSANITYŽ.
www.beachbodycoach.com/petermhope

"I wake up in the morning and piss excellence"

Colorado Springs, CO Based FFL-07/SOT
aloharover is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.