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Old 02-02-2010, 05:54 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Round count - when is a gun worn out?

I saw in the XD thread many posting approximate round counts they have shot.

What do you consider "worn out"?

Most pistols I have shot were not getting broken in until 500 rounds.
On was a Ruger KP90 (the 45 ACP, I always get the 89 and 90 mixed up)
The more I shot it, the better it shot.
Out of the box, we were very disappointed. We kept bringing it along, and noticed it was shooting better. By 500 rounds it was grouping well.

I have, and have had, several guns that were shot tens of thousands of times. Only had a couple that I really noticed the wear.

I sold a Taurus PT908 that I had over 10,000 pieces of brass collected. I shot it for several years and never picked up brass. I never got into reloading 9mm back then because I could buy it so cheap (early 90's).
I sold it because I was getting failure to fire (likely due to a weak return spring). Also the rifling in the barrel was worn out about 1/3 of the way down the barrel. It still shot decently, but was over due for a rebuild.

I don't know the round count, but am quite confident that it was well up into high 20,000's. May have very well been over 30,000.
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Old 02-02-2010, 05:59 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Rifles - My 1894 Marlin 45 colt rifle is getting some wear. Dad and I shared that gun in cowboy action shooting matches for 5 years. He then gave it to me.
I don't know how many tens of thousands of rounds it has shot. It still functions fine. The action is beyond smooth and getting sloppy. The accuracy has declined some, but it is still good enough for me to take deer hunting.
It is at the point that I have been eyeballing other rifles, and considering retiring that one.

High powered rifles. I have never worn one out. I have shot them to point where the accuracy peaked, and then started to decline. However, they are still far from "servicable". They still shoot more accurately than I do most of the time.

The rifles I have seen that had problems were from abuse, not normal wear.
Ironically, I suspect a lot of the abuse was from cleaning the rifles.
Most people drastically over clean guns, causing more harm/wear than not cleaning at all.
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Old 02-02-2010, 06:02 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Shotguns.
The one I have the most mileage on is a Winchester 1300 XTR 20 ga.
The finish has worn off the magazine tube, and it has lots of wear and tear. It still functions flawlessly.

The only shotguns I have seen worn out were very old (early 1900's). Usually Winchester model 1897 and model 12's.

My double barrel I use in cowboy action gets abused. It's got dings and scratches, but it show no signs of wear after 5 years of use.
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Old 02-02-2010, 06:05 AM   #4 (permalink)
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My Walther PPS (carry gun) has 2500 rounds through it and still looks like new. I am yet to have a malfunction.

I bought my Kimber with 100 rounds through it.... hated it. It wouldn't fire anything other than FMJ and barely at that. Now I have maybe 500 rounds through it and it is starting to get better and better. (I still won't carry it - but eventually I will).

My wheel guns all have north of 1K rounds and still function as new.

AR is still relatively new with 1K rounds though it. Over / under shotgun has well north of 5K rounds with no issues or visible wear that I have seen.
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Old 02-02-2010, 06:11 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I honestly don't know. I do know that not a single one of my guns is what I would consider "shot out" and some of them belonged to my Grandpa when he was a kid, and were used to put almost every single meal on their table. Their house was surrounded by a huge forest that was later incorporated into Sam Houston National Forest, and he hunted almost every day for food. While they didn't get as much use as a gun belonging to a competition shooter, I'd say it's quite probable that each of them has at least 25,000-30,000 rounds through them, and are all still more accurate than I am. I agree with you about the people who clean their guns obsessively causing more damage than the rounds they fire.

edit: If you want to see a worn out shotgun, I'll try to take pics of my Grandpa's old double barrel 12 gauge Sempert & Krieghoff Suhl. The rib down the middle is broken loose, and it's being held on with baling wire and some OLD electrical tape. The stock pretty much matches the rest of the gun in condition. It's been like that for as long as I can remember, and my Grandpa used it like that up until he couldn't hunt anymore.

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Old 02-02-2010, 06:26 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I have multiple friends with over 100,000-150,000 rounds through their Glocks.

Some crazy-high-round-count 1911s, too. Guys who have shot out Para 1911 barrels (doesn't take long, they're crap) and Caspian and STI slides. Random note: It is apparently impossible to wear out a Para frame. Know a guy who has killed a half dozen barrels and two or three slides on the same one.

My G34 has at least 40,000-50,000 down the pipe.

They all still work fine, although a one of the higher round-count Glocks has returned to the factory twice. Once for a (free) slide, then for a frame. Barrel is still original.

I have 1,500 through the M&P 9L. That will be somewhere between 10K and 20K by the end of this year.
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Old 02-02-2010, 06:47 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I have a buddy that used the same 870 for all of his shotgun hunting for about 10-12 years. He bought it the first year the 870 was offered in 3.5". About 3 years in the finish wore off and he Kryloned it every year after that. About 2 years ago the barrel bulged in three places, so he stopped using it. He still has it and he is still trying to figure out what to do with it. The action bars have a lot of wear so they are pretty sloppy, and a new barrel costs almost as much as a new gun.
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Old 02-02-2010, 06:58 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Never owned a gun that was worn out, my Garand probably needs a barrel but runs like a Singer. I have heard from some benchrest guys that they start to notice accuracy/throat erosion issues after 10-13 lbs of powder as guideline. I don't consider a pump shotgun broken in until you can hit the slide release and the slide falls completely open just from gravity.
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Old 02-02-2010, 07:06 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Somehwere out there in the ether was a list of rounds and "how many" shots on average it took to wear out a barrel. I do not know what their standard was. I want to say a 30-30 was sometihng like 10k rounds. .22's were phenomenal.

It really depends on the gun, how it's kept, the ammo shot through it, and under what conditions.
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:41 AM   #10 (permalink)
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When is a gun worn out?

I guess when it not longer functions reliably or safely.

I have owned one of my Colts for over 22 years and got it used. Everything on it except the slide and frame has been replaced at least once. Some for pers preference, others due to wear.
I don't think its a stretch to say I have put over 40k through it.
I just got down putting a third barrel on it.
I have probably put a hove dozen slide releases on it.
I have never broken an extractor, but replace them every couple years for grins.
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:52 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Somehwere out there in the ether was a list of rounds and "how many" shots on average it took to wear out a barrel. I do not know what their standard was. I want to say a 30-30 was sometihng like 10k rounds. .22's were phenomenal.

It really depends on the gun, how it's kept, the ammo shot through it, and under what conditions.
Yeah and I've heard something similar. Basically, I think is was along the lines of a specific length of time a projectile spends spinning down the barrel. Something like it takes 8 seconds of bullet friction to wear a highpower centerfire rifle barrel out.

For example...let's look at a 22" long .270WIN barrel with a 130gr, 2900fps velocity projectile (at the muzzle).

This bullet is scooting along at 34800" per second at the muzzle. So, it takes 0.000632 seconds for it to zip from the throat and past the muzzle of a 22" barrel.

Therefore, it would take somewhere between 12,500 and 13,000 shots for the barrel to have approximately 8 seconds of wear.

I have absolutely no idea if this notion has ever been verified, is true, or just a bunch of hooey. Just something I heard.
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:18 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Yeah and I've heard something similar. Basically, I think is was along the lines of a specific length of time a projectile spends spinning down the barrel. Something like it takes 8 seconds of bullet friction to wear a highpower centerfire rifle barrel out.

For example...let's look at a 22" long .270WIN barrel with a 130gr, 2900fps velocity projectile (at the muzzle).

This bullet is scooting along at 34800" per second at the muzzle. So, it takes 0.000632 seconds for it to zip from the throat and past the muzzle of a 22" barrel.

Therefore, it would take somewhere between 12,500 and 13,000 shots for the barrel to have approximately 8 seconds of wear.

I have absolutely no idea if this notion has ever been verified, is true, or just a bunch of hooey. Just something I heard.
That is saying a 30-30 barrel will wear out before a 300 Weatherby barrel? I guess it also depends on what you would call worn out, is it throat erosion or to the point that it is essentially a smoothbore?
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:30 AM   #13 (permalink)
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What about the hot gasses at high pressures and the fact that the middle part of the barrel doesn't really wear out? It's the throat that's usually the issue.
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:37 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I think the guide they were using was the throat being shot out. Some of the wildcat cartridges (like the Lazeroni) we shot out by 750 rounds.
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:07 AM   #15 (permalink)
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That is saying a 30-30 barrel will wear out before a 300 Weatherby barrel? I guess it also depends on what you would call worn out, is it throat erosion or to the point that it is essentially a smoothbore?
Did you read the last sentence....
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:27 AM   #16 (permalink)
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My sendero in 300win had around 6000 or so shots down it when I rebarreled it. The throat erosion was severe to the point of around 1" of freebore that the rifling was non existent. There was also quite a bit of wear about 3/4" from the muzzle. That being said, the gun would still shoot 1.5 to 2" groups at 100 yds.

Still good enough to shoot deer but not good enough for me.
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Old 02-02-2010, 03:44 PM   #17 (permalink)
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my P22 has around 150,000 rds thru it, sldie is getting alittle loose, but it still shoots good.


my AK has well over 50,000 thru it, mostly mag dumps.


the baby mac has close to 100,000 already and the bore still looks nice...there is wear on the sear and bolt, but everything else looks good...couple of mags have some feedlip wear...
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Old 02-02-2010, 05:50 PM   #18 (permalink)
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my P22 has around 150,000 rds thru it, sldie is getting alittle loose, but it still shoots good.


my AK has well over 50,000 thru it, mostly mag dumps.


the baby mac has close to 100,000 already and the bore still looks nice...there is wear on the sear and bolt, but everything else looks good...couple of mags have some feedlip wear...
My P22 was a finicky bitch so it doesn't get shot much at all.
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Old 02-02-2010, 05:57 PM   #19 (permalink)
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my P22 has around 150,000 rds thru it, sldie is getting alittle loose, but it still shoots good.


my AK has well over 50,000 thru it, mostly mag dumps.


the baby mac has close to 100,000 already and the bore still looks nice...there is wear on the sear and bolt, but everything else looks good...couple of mags have some feedlip wear...
You sure about those numbers?
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Old 02-02-2010, 06:08 PM   #20 (permalink)
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You sure about those number?
If you knew what runner has posted in the past you'd understand.
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Old 02-02-2010, 06:42 PM   #21 (permalink)
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You sure about those numbers?
Hell I saw a few hundred go through each of those 3 and I was only out for a few hours.

The Mac and AK only ran for a few seconds for their few hundred.
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Old 02-02-2010, 06:46 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Oh, are we talking FA? Having a hard time believing the 150k through a P22 though.
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Old 02-02-2010, 06:54 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Dude, we give him the benefit of the doubt

I have personally contributed to the round count on the AK
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Old 02-04-2010, 07:02 PM   #24 (permalink)
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everyone that gets their hands on a suppressed P22 ends up shooting a box thru it...I know of at least 5 occasions that my KIDS have run over 1000 rds thru it in ONE afternoon in teh pasture.

I put over 500 thru it last week when it was raining and I was shooting from the shop with the doors open so I could see the target in teh psture.


seriously, I need to spend about $200 on FACTORY repairs for the TAC65, but can't bring myself to spend more to fix it that I paid for it new. There are at least FIVE bullet strikes inside and THREE on teh front end cap. They want $65 for the front and $45 for each baffle, plus $75 labor and shipping, plus they said about 4-6 WEEKS turn around time. I have let it go and between cleanings and it has gotten 8-10K rds thru it and gotten so dirty inside that I had to DRIVE the baffle sout with a hammer...


I quit trying to keep up with rd count on it after around 80K, but it still gets all 7 mags used everytime it goes out...

hell, I lug 22rf to the pasture in 30 cal ammo cans...I open up bulk packs and dump them in til the can is full...these have gotten emptied several times when the P22, GSG5, and a couple 10-22 were available...I started taking a few more 22s everytime to ease the pain, but then they ALL get heavy rd counts.


when it fails, i will trade for another and run IT til it dies a horrible death.



and you need to show up at teh next OSR SW shoot, then YOu can add to the AK rd count. bring a case of X39 and I will let you do some drum dumps.
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Old 02-05-2010, 06:46 AM   #25 (permalink)
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<snip>

What do you consider "worn out"?

<snip>
It's "worn out" when it can't be fixed, or someone doesn't want it anymore.




Kinda like the hand me down clothes from the family.

1. Knees are out on the jeans, but still not "worn out" as ma puts patches on them.

2. After the patches, the jeans are passed on in the family, and other holes develop. Still, the jeans are not "worn out" as patches are put back on the same old holes AND the new holes.

3. Little johnny is the smallest in the family, and the jeans are too small for him, but the jeans are still not "worn out" as the jeans are wanted by the family down the road who isn't as fortunate as us.

4. Finally, the jeans are being held together by the final stitches, but they are still not "worn out" as the jeans aren't thrown in the trash, but used for shop rags, or patches for other clothes.

Long story short..........


It's in the eye of the beholder.






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