Educate me (military people!)

[LiLBucket]

Quick argument settling answer please (with good reference)...

.....a VERY close friend (practically family) is a Marine going on 6+ years(?).. Asks if I have an M4 style weapon w/rails on the lower receiver..... I chuckle and give him a smartass reply that I've never seen a lower receiver w/rails on it....

After a "heated" argument over the phone about what's what, we agree to disagree pending some research...

Him:
Lover receiver consists of everything BEHIND the barrel nut
Upper receiver is everything forward of the barrel nut

Me:
Lower receiver houses the trigger group. mag (if inserted). stock (if installed)
Upper houses the BCG/CH and holds the barrel and it's parts

He wasn't saying he was "right or wrong", but that's what's apparently been drilled into him for years. He knows I know/like weapons and admits that everything he knows is strictly from being in the military, so it's a friendly argument. I was just wondering if this is standard training/logic for simplicity or ??

Thanks in advance.....

Oh, he asked because he has some rear sights to give me, so it's a win-win for me

[cj7sswampers]

What I was taught in the Corps, is your explanation of the weapon.

[Scott@Rockstomper]

<--- not military or former military, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express in recent memory, but...

There are two items called "receiver" on an M4, one upper, one lower. Both are behind the barrel nut. The only items forward of the barrel nut are the handguard, barrel, front sight, gas tube, muzzle device, and grenade or flare launcher (if so equipped). Nothing forward of the barrel nut could reasonably be called a receiver. The fact that the two pieces that are receiver are one above the other, is the entire reason they're called "upper" and "lower"; if they were fore/aft, they'd be "front" and "rear" receivers.

Further, not that they're necessarily the predominant technological authority on such things, but ATF's Firearms Technology Branch calls the part with the rail or carry handle on it that the bolt carrier goes into, an "upper receiver" (and "not a firearm"), and the part that the magazine and FCG live in, a "lower receiver" (and "a firearm").

[LiLBucket]

Originally Posted by cj7sswampers

What I was taught in the Corps, is your explanation of the weapon.

I was wondering this

Originally Posted by Scott@Rockstomper

<--- not military or former military, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express in recent memory, but...

There are two items called "receiver" on an M4, one upper, one lower. Both are behind the barrel nut. The only items forward of the barrel nut are the handguard, barrel, front sight, gas tube, muzzle device, and grenade or flare launcher (if so equipped). Nothing forward of the barrel nut could reasonably be called a receiver. The fact that the two pieces that are receiver are one above the other, is the entire reason they're called "upper" and "lower"; if they were fore/aft, they'd be "front" and "rear" receivers.

Further, not that they're necessarily the predominant technological authority on such things, but ATF's Firearms Technology Branch calls the part with the rail or carry handle on it that the bolt carrier goes into, an "upper receiver" (and "not a firearm"), and the part that the magazine and FCG live in, a "lower receiver" (and "a firearm").

Exactly what you just said, is what I tried explaining. It was over the phone so......

He said he will consult "THE MOTHERFUCKING MANUALS IN MY DAMN ARMORY YOU STOOPID CIVY!!!!!!!!!" Of course, in a loving tone

After hearing my more-than-his logical explanation, he was unsure if his facts were right. He did say that he was in fact taught it as he argues it. I just don't know how extensive weapon training is in the military (as far as these specifics are concerned). Would this be more armorer related or ?? Do the "grunts" (excuse my terminology) just get told where the bang button is ??

[Scott@Rockstomper]

Originally Posted by LiLBucket

Do the "grunts" (excuse my terminology) just get told where the bang button is ??

From what I've heard from "gun guy" friends on leave and/or discharged... they went in knowing more about the M4 than what was taught. And they were told not to take it farther apart than X, nobody cares if you know how, don't do it, that's armorer-level work. The non-gun-guy ones, retain just barely enough to make it go bang and make it clean after making it go bang.

It's entirely possible that your friend was taught that what he told you is right; you already know it's not, but that doesn't mean that it isn't taught that way for the sake of expedient learning by non-gun-guy recruits.

[jeep_87_cherokee]

he must be a POG......

[therifleman]

Sounds like your friend needs to look at a Brownells catalog or go shopping online for AR15 parts.

[Hef]

Tell him to thoroughly read MCRP 3-01A Rifle Marksmanship. Better yet, tell him to order an upper receiver from any manufacturer he chooses, and then see what shows up at his door.

[misterfubar]

You'd be amazed at how little the average soldier knows about the M-16/M4/ARwhatever.

[Hef]

Originally Posted by Scott@Rockstomper

From what I've heard from "gun guy" friends on leave and/or discharged... they went in knowing more about the M4 than what was taught. And they were told not to take it farther apart than X, nobody cares if you know how, don't do it, that's armorer-level work. The non-gun-guy ones, retain just barely enough to make it go bang and make it clean after making it go bang.

It's entirely possible that your friend was taught that what he told you is right; you already know it's not, but that doesn't mean that it isn't taught that way for the sake of expedient learning by non-gun-guy recruits.

My buddy is a DI at Parris Island and has told me on many occasions that most recruits are totally fucking clueless about guns. One dumbass somehow managed to shoot his thumb off at the rifle range. How the fuck do you do that?

[aloharover]

The ARMY TM 9-1005-319-23&P, the Army and I think the USMC, assembly and parts manual for the M4, M16 lists two receivers. Upper and lower. The upper and lower are joined together by a pivot pin and a take down pin.
Figure C8 identifies the Upper receiver. Parts list shows 1005011343701 as the NSN for the A2 upper, 1005013826795 is the M4 type flat top.
Figure C-11 identifies the lower receiver assemblies for the M16A2 and M4. it is the lower half.
The lower receiver is shown in Figure C16. There isnt an NSN for the lowers. M16A2 part number is 9349102. M4 is 9390015, and M4A1 is 12972652

So from the book, your friend is wrong

[sometoyotaguy]

It's amazing how many military guys will tell you that a m16 fires a 308 round.
It's not worth arguing with someone about it.

[PONY_DRIVER]

Originally Posted by aloharover

The ARMY TM 9-1005-319-23&P, the Army and I think the USMC, assembly and parts manual for the M4, M16 lists two receivers. Upper and lower. The upper and lower are joined together by a pivot pin and a take down pin.
Figure C8 identifies the Upper receiver. Parts list shows 1005011343701 as the NSN for the A2 upper, 1005013826795 is the M4 type flat top.
Figure C-11 identifies the lower receiver assemblies for the M16A2 and M4. it is the lower half.
The lower receiver is shown in Figure C16. There isnt an NSN for the lowers. M16A2 part number is 9349102. M4 is 9390015, and M4A1 is 12972652

So from the book, your friend is wrong

Generally speaking the USMC uses Army FM's with "FM"
(for Fleet Marine) placed in front of FM XXXX and "Soldier" replaced with "Marine".

As for the OP, your buddy is as wrong as two boys fuckin.

[mrboyle]

Originally Posted by sometoyotaguy

It's amazing how many military guys will tell you that a m16 fires a 308 round.
It's not worth arguing with someone about it.

I've got a friend that is a retired Marine that claims he carried a .458 SOCOM M4 while he was in the desert. Problem is he served during the first Iraq war, and the .458 didn't come out until '01. He's made many other outrageous claims that make it hard to believe anything he says.

[1st Recline Bn]

Originally Posted by aloharover

The ARMY TM 9-1005-319-23&P, the Army and I think the USMC, assembly and parts manual for the M4, M16 lists two receivers. Upper and lower. The upper and lower are joined together by a pivot pin and a take down pin.
Figure C8 identifies the Upper receiver. Parts list shows 1005011343701 as the NSN for the A2 upper, 1005013826795 is the M4 type flat top.
Figure C-11 identifies the lower receiver assemblies for the M16A2 and M4. it is the lower half.
The lower receiver is shown in Figure C16. There isnt an NSN for the lowers. M16A2 part number is 9349102. M4 is 9390015, and M4A1 is 12972652

So from the book, your friend is wrong

What Pete said ,and my twelve years in the USMC as a 0331/0321/8111/8531.
Tell him his Drill Instructor would be disappointed in him.
Marine recruits are taught everything there is to learn about the M16A2/M4 weapons. From maximum effective range on a point target to the difference between an upper receiver and a lower.
http://www.yhm.net/store/uppers.html <uppers

http://www.yhm.net/store/lowers.html<lowers

[gladman]

Originally Posted by Hef

My buddy is a DI at Parris Island and has told me on many occasions that most recruits are totally fucking clueless about guns. One dumbass somehow managed to shoot his thumb off at the rifle range. How the fuck do you do that?

shitty DI not doing his bidness and keeping an eye out for the 'tards.

[Citzen_Hawk]

With all that said is there a lower out that has rails?

[zukitough]

Originally Posted by sometoyotaguy

It's amazing how many military guys will tell you that a m16 fires a 308 round.
It's not worth arguing with someone about it.

i would like to meet these people u speak of. they are in need of corrective training. the M14 however can fire .308

[pipehitter155]

you guys need to look into the MK11 MOD 0 based off the M16 platform...just a thought....

[aloharover]

Originally Posted by Citzen_Hawk

With all that said is there a lower out that has rails?

Sort of. The new Rock River piston driven piston lower has a short section of rail where the receiver extension normally goes.



There are a couple of stocks, CAA right off the top of my head, that have a section of rail on the side. CAA makes a mag holder, and a cheek riser that can clip on.

Thats all I can think of.

[aloharover]

Originally Posted by pipehitter155

you guys need to look into the MK11 MOD 0 based off the M16 platform...just a thought....

Actually it is based of the Armalite AR10 platform. But it still doesn't have rail on the lower.

[fj40john]

Originally Posted by Citzen_Hawk

With all that said is there a lower out that has rails?

If he was calling the upper and lower reciever the "lower" then he was most likely referring to a flattop (rail) vs carry handle (no rail).

Doesn't seem like there is anywhere on a lower that a rail could go that wouldnt be in the way.

[Citzen_Hawk]

Originally Posted by fj40john

Doesn't seem like there is anywhere on a lower that a rail could go that wouldnt be in the way.

I think on the mag well it could be done. I just havent seen it. Then again I'm not sure why anybody want to have a cheese grader located there.

[XJ JIMMY]

Remove the take down pins and you have two pieces. An upper and lower. its that easy. Must be a admin pog.

[usmcdoc14]

Yes they are taught "clean this far and thats all you need to friggen know" same with Navy. Even armorers are not allowed to replace barrels and other "red item" shit or else Crane gets all butt-hurt because you are causing their kids to starve or something

Seriously.

Do you have any idea how many FCGs I unfucked due to not only military members but right from the shipping crate from crane? Don't assume that "military" knows jack shit about small arms