Ballistics vs Brain Matter

[Entropy]

At pool leagues last night, one of the guys was rambling on and on about something, and I really wasn't paying that much attention.

Somehow, they got onto the subject of guns, and Kristi got involved cause she is waiting on her CCL. I ignored most of it, cause it was basically speculation and whatnot on how many times to shoot an intruder and shit like that.

Then, he made a comment to the effect of: "You definitely want to shoot them as many times as you can. If you shoot a man in the heart, his brain is still active for four minutes, and he could still come at you."

All I said was: "That's BS. If I shoot you anywhere around here (framing his upper torso) with a .45 JHP, it is going to pulp your brain with the concussive force and rip out most of your spine. If your brain does stay lit for a while, you're still not getting up."

I understand that weird things happen at extremes - but I know I've read about the brain getting pulped from the concussive force and all that.

I'm just curious if any of you have any real world experience or thoughts on this. Of course, everyone is welcome to put in there completely useless and wildly exaggerated opinions as well...

[Gozuki]

Originally Posted by Entropy

All I said was: "That's BS. If I shoot you anywhere around here (framing his upper torso) with a .45 JHP, it is going to pulp your brain with the concussive force and rip out most of your spine. If your brain does stay lit for a while, you're still not getting up."

All the animals I've shot would disagree with this. I agree with the drunk, a torso shot will not stop the brain, nor rip out the spine.

[pb4u4x4]

The deer I shot through the lungs with a .308 walked 80yds before laying down, the deer my daughter shot in the neck was DRT.

Score one for the drunk.

[1992xj]

Originally Posted by Gozuki

All the animals I've shot would disagree with this. I agree with the drunk, a torso shot will not stop the brain, nor rip out the spine.

I concur.
Then the arguement might come up about the animals being far enough away for it to matter. To that, I say I have never seen nor heard of someone getting shot up close and personal having their brain turn into "pulp".
The only weird thing I can think of that shows the power of the body under servere impact from a bullet is a deer that my best friend. This deer was shot at 125 yards with a 300 win mag. The heart and both lungs were turned into mush instantly and we had to track the deer for 250 yards. How a deer did this with no heart and lungs is insane, but its amazing what the body does. I believe anything can happen to people who might have fatal shots placed into them before they hit the ground. Adrinaline is an amazing thing.

[Entropy]

I've seen deer do all kinds of things. I've seen them run away, never to be found. I've seen them drop on the spot from a 7mm. I've seen the aftermath of a deer that dropped in his tracks after beeing shot from about 20 yds with a S&W .44Mag after my friend Neil walked up on him coming back to the cabin.

All of those shots designed to kill the deer - but not rip his insides out. Edit: Meaning, it isn't a HP and you're trying NOT to damage the inside.

I'm talking about a .45 JHP to the chest.

Still, I'm not really going for - "He's right, or I'm right" - I really want to know the specifics behind it.

I did find this article - http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/other/jh_45acp.htm

I know I read one that said the concussive force from a 45 damages the brain - even if it is a torso hit. I'm trying to find that one again.

[TEX]

Instant death is almost unheard of. Destroying a man's heart & him having 4 minutes left to mess you up is a stretch though. 4 seconds, maybe.

[Citzen_Hawk]

There are police reports of fatally injured perps returning fire for several minutes until the adrenaline and blood finally bled out. The only way for a true drop dead shot is to separate the brain from the spinal cord. Because of this resilience by the human body the triple tap, 2 to the heart 1 to the head, is often discussed for drop dead shooting

[Entropy]

Originally Posted by TEX

Instant death is almost unheard of. Destroying a man's heart & him having 4 minutes left to mess you up is a stretch though. 4 seconds, maybe.

I know that some BGs get snarled up on some drug or they're just big bastards on a mission.

I'm talking about some idiot meth head that crawls through your window in the middle of the night. I don't mean instant death either - I'm just having a hard time imagining all but the baddest individuals shaking off a hit to the chest like that and coming on.

I believe your brain could survive for four minutes - I just don't think you're going to be doing much but twitching on the floor or shambling like a zombie. Still, that's why I asked...

[misterfubar]

It's a .45 not a 20mm. It's not going to "pulp" anyones brain from a chest shot.

[Entropy]

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0808/0808.1443.pdf

I found it, although it isn't as clear as I remembered it. This is the section I chose to remember...

The clinical implications of these analyses are
that about half of patients who have sustained a
gunshot wound to the chest that produced a
local pressure wave of 1000 psi or greater are
likely to have experienced the rapid
(neurological) incapacitation effect and may
have experienced mild to moderate TBI.

[far...right]

Sounds like you were "that guy"

[Entropy]

Originally Posted by far...right

Sounds like you were "that guy"

If I did shoot that little bastard in the chest with a .45 JHP - there is no way he'd be coming at me for four minutes afterwards - I don't care what deer or crazed criminals do!

[aloharover]

4 minutes, I don't know. But gun in hand, bullet in the chest and still returning fire at you, sure thing.
Do some reading on Mogadishu and Khat.

[4runner]

local incident...weirdo guy was shooting at kids with a BBgun...wife calls hubby and sas man with gun near kids...he rolls up, grabs rifle from trunk when hesees man with lever gun pointed at kids...one rd of 300winmag later...the guy is laying on the groundmissing most of his chest and the neighbors across the alley hve a dead refrigerator. He was 50 FEET away and thought the guy had 3030...
no charges filed...he did have to pay for the frige.

[Ben Segrest]

I read recently, here or on my local board, that some SF type unit uses something like a "one inch rule". Basically, 1"/X equals the number of times you need to shoot a person to stop them where X is the caliber of the bullet. So 2 hits from a .50, 3-4 from a .308, 4-5 from a .223, etc. Not particularly relevant to the conversation other than to point out that the guys who actually shoot people for a living don't believe in a one shot stop even when using rifle rounds.

[far...right]

Originally Posted by Ben Segrest

I read recently, here or on my local board, that some SF type unit uses something like a "one inch rule". Basically, 1"/X equals the number of times you need to shoot a person to stop them where X is the caliber of the bullet. So 2 hits from a .50, 3-4 from a .308, 4-5 from a .223, etc. Not particularly relevant to the conversation other than to point out that the guys who actually shoot people for a living don't believe in a one shot stop even when using rifle rounds.

Im going to guess one COM hit from a 50bmg would probably do you in rather quickly...

[jokemon]

Originally Posted by Entropy

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0808/0808.1443.pdf

I found it, although it isn't as clear as I remembered it. This is the section I chose to remember...

The clinical implications of these analyses are
that about half of patients who have sustained a
gunshot wound to the chest that produced a
local pressure wave of 1000 psi or greater are
likely to have experienced the rapid
(neurological) incapacitation effect and may
have experienced mild to moderate TBI.

aka Go in to shock......

Better safe than sorry, you aren't getting back up after you get an arm\leg ripped off.

[Aces'n'8s]

Originally Posted by TEX

Instant death is almost unheard of. Destroying a man's heart & him having 4 minutes left to mess you up is a stretch though. 4 seconds, maybe.

Naw....if he's a real mofo, I'd give him 20-30 seconds.

There's a vid on the net which shows a latin american riot/looting situation. A mil/police officer shoots a backpack wearing looter point plank with a shotgun, presumably with buckshot. Immediately after the shot, you can see a massive amount of blood pump out of his chest and onto the ground. He falls onto the ground and sortof writhes around a bit until he passes out. I'm pretty sure he lasted >4 seconds though..

[Mudinyeri]

Originally Posted by aloharover

4 minutes, I don't know. But gun in hand, bullet in the chest and still returning fire at you, sure thing.
Do some reading on Mogadishu and Khat.

^I agree.

FWIW, I shot a deer through the heart with a .30-06 at about 50 yards this past deer season. He walked about 20 yards and laid down ... meaning he controlled how he went down it wasn't just a go-rubbery-and-drop. His heart was pretty much destroyed. The body cavity was full of blood. When I sawed his antlers off the top of his head ... his brain was fully intact.

Now, I know that's not a human being but roughly the same size.

[Gozuki]

I think the 4 minutes comes from the guillitine times, when there was speculation that the severed head could continue to function and think for up to 4 minutes from decapitation.

[Ebs]

Your brain will go a few minutes without oxygen (blood flow) before brain damage is likely (upon recovery, of course).

He was wrong thinking that because the brain is still undamaged that everything else in the body will be up and running without oxygen. If that was the case it would take minutes to choke someone out, not seconds.

[Aces'n'8s]

Originally Posted by Entropy

I believe your brain could survive for four minutes - I just don't think you're going to be doing much but twitching on the floor or shambling like a zombie. Still, that's why I asked...

The brain can function without the heart for a time, but muscles most likely cannot function without signals from the brain. In a perfect world, that means destroying the brain stem.

This guy's brain probably didn't meet the 4 minute mark. Judging by the arterial bleeding pouring out this protesters head, I'm betting his heart is still beating but his motor functions have obviously ceased.

NSFW 35%
Massive Head Trauma




.

[SilverZuk]

With a heartshot, they will be down in seconds.
They may pop to their feet, they still have their faculties and could shoot you, cut you, or take a few steps.
They will be expired in less than a minute, more like 15 seconds. A lot can happen in 15 seconds.

If you miss the heart, you have now inflicted a generally non-lethal wound into your target.
They might bleed out, depending on what vessels you hit near the heart.
The further from the heart, the less chance that the shot will be lethal or incapacitate them.
Quite a few people are shot in the torso/chest cavity and live if they are close to a trauma center. If they make it to the hospital with heart activity, they will likely be walking out of the hospital within a week.

This is why if you start shooting, you shoot until the threat is gone or the gun is empty.
Then prepare to fight or run a foot race.

[mikey_vegas]

Originally Posted by Ben Segrest

I read recently, here or on my local board, that some SF type unit uses something like a "one inch rule". Basically, 1"/X equals the number of times you need to shoot a person to stop them where X is the caliber of the bullet. So 2 hits from a .50, 3-4 from a .308, 4-5 from a .223, etc. Not particularly relevant to the conversation other than to point out that the guys who actually shoot people for a living don't believe in a one shot stop even when using rifle rounds.

are you kidding, most if not all military sniper schools pound "one shot, one kill" to say that they don’t believe in one shot drop is ridiculous

with out oxygen you have 10 seconds MAX before the lights go out, you can watch it every week on spike. next time you see someone go for a rear naked just count how many seconds after they sink it in until the other guy is limp. just watch YouTube - Dustin Poirier Rear Naked Choke this guy made it 5 seconds
Ya your brain mite be alive but your not going to be fighting back, your going to be unconscious on the ground in lala land. Without a heart your blood pressure ill be 0 and you are going to be awake for not very long. deers are not humans, our brains require ALOT more oxygen

I think what OP is referring to hydraulic shock, kinda like if you stand 25 yards away from a stick of TNT you will live, but if your in a pool 25 yards away and i drop a stick in there your going to at the very least be knocked unconscious with blown ear drums or just dead.

the math makes sense but our brains can stand the massive shock since its such a short period of time, kinda like a car in a car wreck you can live through a short period (couple hundredths of a second) of 100Gs but extend that out to a few seconds your going to be mashed potato.

[jokemon]

Originally Posted by mikey_vegas

are you kidding, most if not all military sniper schools pound "one shot, one kill" to say that they don’t believe in one shot drop is ridiculous

^ That is mostly true, some say shoot to wound to bring out more targets however. (irrelevant to the direction this thread is going but whatever)

Just shoot until they stop moving, or shoot them with a big ass gun like I posted the Degal.