Udate on shop progress...

[Redmist]

Some may remember a while back a post I made asking for advice on starting a shop. Well, we have the machines coming, and have purchased a 10,000sqft building to house them.

I have been learning Gibbscam as fast as I can.. haha We found a great CNC guy and hired him on as well.

The machines we got are:

Nakamura-tome WT-150
Patriot bar feeder
Haas VF-3SS
and a lil Haas TL-2.

Our WT went to methods in Arizona for a few turn key parts for contractual work. I will post some pics as things get set on slab.

Should be turning out some gun parts late July if all goes well!!

[Azzy2000]

Very cool.. good luck to you guys

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by Azzy2000

Very cool.. good luck to you guys

x2. tough time to open a small machine shop. Because of the relatively small size of your shop, you end up competing with people working out of their garages with virtually no overhead.

[300sniper]

Originally Posted by spork2367

x2. tough time to open a small machine shop. Because of the relatively small size of your shop, you end up competing with people working out of their garages with virtually no overhead.

i'm guessing he has a product or products in mind to manufacture and is not opening a job shop.

[Gozuki]

He as much as said so.

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by 300sniper

i'm guessing he has a product or products in mind to manufacture and is not opening a job shop.

He said contract parts. I didn't see him say anything about a product line. Unless you are making parts for your own product line, you are a job shop. Some are true job shops in the sense that they take whatever comes through the door. I run what is known as a repetitive job shop. We have a relatively concrete customer base, and often make repeat parts.

And if he's making enough contract parts to keep the business afloat on only three machines, he's going to have a tough time making room for gun parts on the side.

Just my .02

[Redmist]

It's the machines themselves that are working out for us. Everyone around this area has old Okuma machines. The twin spindle, twin turret 150 is going to be the money maker. We are picking up work on a contract base for places that are 8 months behind on production...

Interesting times for sure!

Will update when cool stuff happens. : )

[4runner]

Care to elaborate on why you need a twin spindle/twinturret machine?

Care to share cost on that one?

Are you making gunparts? Or are those a side job?

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by 4runner

Care to elaborate on why you need a twin spindle/twinturret machine?

Care to share cost on that one?

To be competitive on the complex turned parts today, even a small job shop needs at least one twin spindle, twin turret machine with live tooling.

I'd guess around 200,000-220,000 depending on options. If you look around, it's still a good time to buy new machines if you can put them to work.

[ZjSteveO]

Cool. You will love your haas, I use one almost daily and they are top notch machines.

[Redmist]

We will be making gun parts yes, 2A Will have it's own product for sure, but it looks like we will be busy with outside work here for a while.

The twin spindle twin turret will cut production time by more then half.

With live tooling you are looking at around $300,000 with a bar feeder.

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by ZjSteveO

Cool. You will love your haas, I use one almost daily and they are top notch machines.

Haas machines have their place. I've run quite a few of them. I don't think top notch is a a common phrase used to describe them.

Originally Posted by Redmist

With live tooling you are looking at around $300,000 with a bar feeder.

So are you talking with the live tooling holders? Because you can't buy a WT-150 without live tooling. And which model bar feeder, the 338 or 551? What's the price on that bar feeder?

One of our bar loaders was around 20,000. Our big bar feeder on our Hardinge twin turn 65 was 100,000, but the TT65 new was 500,000.

[Redmist]

Correct on the live tooling holders. We got 4 Axial and 4 Radial...
we got the Patriot 338. I would have to look at the invoice for a price.

The TL-2 Should be in our shop on the 3rd of next month, and the VF-3SS About 2 weeks after that.

[Redmist]

Found the invoice!

We got the 551 NOT the 338 and it was around $28,000

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by Redmist

Correct on the live tooling holders. We got 4 Axial and 4 Radial...
we got the Patriot 338. I would have to look at the invoice for a price.

The TL-2 Should be in our shop on the 3rd of next month, and the VF-3SS About 2 weeks after that.

I really want to get a TL series lathe for our shop. Perfect combo of easy to use CNC control and manual lathe with digital readout.

[Redmist]

Yeah so far everyone is fighting over who gets to play with the TL-2 first, haha. I will be turning out some SAIGA conversions on it first so it will see some simple stuff to start.

[ZjSteveO]

Originally Posted by spork2367

Haas machines have their place. I've run quite a few of them. I don't think top notch is a a common phrase used to describe them.

we use ours mainly to build compressor valve seats and I am working on programming to do barrel threads and contours. I have never had a single problem with it, it does what I want when I want. What more do I need?

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by ZjSteveO

we use ours mainly to build compressor valve seats and I am working on programming to do barrel threads and contours. I have never had a single problem with it, it does what I want when I want. What more do I need?

Sounds like it's perfect for what you're doing. You likely won't have a problem with it. They are good machines for what they were built for. They are not "top notch." I could name 30 higher quality, longer lasting machines just off the top of my head. A new hardinge full manual HVLP lathe costs 30,000 a new TL1 is only 24,000. Depends whether you are trying to hold .002 or .0002.

[Gozuki]

Originally Posted by spork2367

I could name 30 higher quality, longer lasting machines just off the top of my head.

Not made in America though. Only 22% of Hardinge products are from North America, the bulk is Chinese. I worked for Haas in Oxnard for a few years, one of the best places to work ever.

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by Gozuki

Not made in America though. Only 22% of Hardinge products are from North America, the bulk is Chinese. I worked for Haas in Oxnard for a few years, one of the best places to work ever.

I'm aware of that. I was just up at Hardinge in Elmira (horsehead) on the 5th for HTMS. The only things still made in the us are the T series and Quest series. Most of their spindle cartridge assemblies are still made here. Also all of their rotary products. Our shop has 10 Hardinge CNC lathes and 6 Hardinge manual lathes, but they are all from before Hardinge outsourced everything. Believe me, I've dealt with Hardinge a lot. Gosiger is doing almost all, if not all of their replacement parts and service now.

And personally, made in America doesn't mean much for machine tools anymore. Nakamuras, Matsuuras. Citizen, Mori-Seiki all put US machines to shame.

[Gozuki]

Originally Posted by spork2367

And personally, made in America doesn't mean much for machine tools anymore. Nakamuras, Matsuuras. Citizen, Mori-Seiki all put US machines to shame.

You're right, we should give up.

I took pride at Haas, and I know a lot of people still there, who do too. Perhaps if we, as consumers, encouraged more local buying, our economy might be a tad healthier.

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by Gozuki

You're right, we should give up.

I took pride at Haas, and I know a lot of people still there, who do too. Perhaps if we, as consumers, encouraged more local buying, our economy might be a tad healthier.

You're missing the point, but that's okay. If I need a lathe that is going to hold .0001 on a part all day long it isn't going to be a Haas. Period. There are many things Haas does well. I'd love to get a TL-2 or TL-3 for our shop, but 90% of our turning just couldn't be done on one. Comparing a Haas mill to one of our Matsuura mills is like comparing apples to creme brulée.

In the 80's and 90's, the only lathes we bought were American made Hardinge machines. We also bough Fadal and Hurco mills. Unfortunately if we continued to buy American machine tools our scrap rate would quadruple, we'd never make good parts, and be out of business.

Find me a good US made swiss turn machine...

I wish it was possible, but the best machine tools have never come from the US. Hardinge was probably the closest we ever came.

(I've run Haas TL-2's, VF2's, TM-2's, SL-10's and SL-20's)

[Chris]

I just want a lathe, any lathe. But my wife wants a piano.

I told her I'd prefer she become more proficient on the organ.

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by Chris

I just want a lathe, any lathe. But my wife wants a piano.

I told her I'd prefer she become more proficient on the organ.

Tell her when she can make you some money with the piano you'll buy one.

I'd just like some more time to run my lathe and mill at home.

[Chris]

We have had this conversation as it relates to all the other tools I own. She knows the lathe won't make me any money. The other tools do occasionally.