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Old 09-27-2011, 10:13 AM   #26 (permalink)
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1) What do we what out of this meeting?
2) What is the overall message we need to send?

It looks like they will be talking about all the projects, which could bring heated discussions.
I don't want to see the whole meeting get side tracked and we loose site of the goal

Cut and paste from the letter. last paragraph

The decision to be made is whether to adopt and implement the proposed action, an alternative to the proposed action, or take no action to issue an easement to El Dorado County.

Is sure sounds like the whole meeting is really around the easement and the projects the FS wants done.
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Old 09-27-2011, 10:37 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Since the easement is the first thing on the letter do you think they will make a decision about it right there? I guess my thought is to keep talking about the easement until they make a decision as it pointless to talk about doing the projects the FS wants if the county does not have the access to get any of the proposed work done. Am I way off base here?
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Old 09-27-2011, 10:57 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Is there going to be an opportunity to ask questions at this meeting. If so in what format? Raise hands, submit written questions etc etc. Just would like people to be able to prepare
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I just tried calling the Placerville Office and have gotten a recording 3 times to ask what format for questions.
I just talked with them this morning.
This will be just an open house format. they will have maps available and people to explain them and the process, and if individuals have questions they may ask them directly to those people.

It is not going to be them giving any kind of presentation and then a question and answer session. So have your questions ready in advance

you can show up any time after 5. but you wont miss anything if you show up at 6 or 7 either.
hope that helps
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Old 09-27-2011, 10:59 AM   #29 (permalink)
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But I think you know that.
Yup, it was a rhetorical question, asked as a smart-ass. ;p
Even if EDC could ban ENF from use of the road, Smokey Bear could just walk alongside the road in the Forest... of course, in doing so, he'd risk tripping over banjo-makers and cross-country skiers hiding in the bushes, cameras poised, ready to snap a picture to later photoshop and caption misleadingly.

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Old 09-27-2011, 11:12 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I just talked with them this morning.
This will be just an open house format. they will have maps available and people to explain them and the process, and if individuals have questions they may ask them directly to those people.
It is not going to be them giving any kind of presentation and then a question and answer session. So have your questions ready in advance.
I’m going to try to make it up there early in the session… USFS is big on these ‘open house’ sessions because it limits the amount of rabble that can be roused. Some folks have been known to step up on a soapbox in public meetings. I’m one of those people, FWIW. More worrisome, so are Rich, Monte, and Karen. ‘Open House’ sessions are more one-on-one, where USFS tries to keep users from talking much with each other. From an information-distribution perspective, 'open houses' are probably more effective than public meetings, but when it comes to mobilizing a community, it doesn't help much. Looking around ... I think we need to mobilize the Rubicon trail user community.

As for specific comments/questions, I understand that RTF is working a detailed response with experts and counsel, and that takes some of the load off of other trail users. Detailed analysis/consideration is best from a wide range of trail users, but right now, my life/job is pretty full, so I'm damn happy to know that some highly-informed folks are on this already.

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Old 09-27-2011, 11:15 AM   #31 (permalink)
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The process works like this. It is a NEPA process which guides everything the FS does. It is the National Environmental Protection Act that defines how they do this.

1. The FS releases a Notice of Intent (NOI) that they will be issuing a decision document (EIS). The NOI is the "scoping" part of the process where we can have an opportunity to bring in new stuff or comment on the stuff they are saying is within the "scope" of the project.

2. Then they go back and make a bigger document that "is" the draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS). At that time there will be another public review period where we can comment again. (i.e. "hey, in scoping I said blah blah blah and you did not do that etc.)

3. Then they go back and make a decision and the appeal process starts (There is a time limit there too). In order to be successful in the appeal process, you MUST be involved in the scoping and draft EIS process.

That is it in as basic as I can make it. For example I have the Tahoe National forest EIS for Travel Management here and it is over 6" of bound paper books. So, it "can" get complicated. I do not imagine this one being like that as it is only one road and not every road one the forest, but it will be detailed.

We need to ensure that the scope of the project is the Rubicon and not some other extraneous thing that is outside the "scope". They are trying to roll in as a part of this, work done to "add" in spurs to parking or just adjacent parking (not clear at all) for areas near Buck etc. The FS got a grant to do this a year ago and because it falls within the scope of the easement application that the County has submitted, the more they include of these types of things the better because it will all be approved at once.

What would be outside the scope is for them to start saying how to maintain the road from Georgetown to Wentworth over Hartless.

The bridge at Buck is not something the County is planning or thinking about. Is that within the scope?


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Old 09-27-2011, 01:22 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Scott,

Bring your soap box....I'm gonna borrow it

Bebe
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Old 09-28-2011, 06:55 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Old 09-28-2011, 07:55 AM   #34 (permalink)
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How did it go?
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Old 09-28-2011, 09:22 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Scott,

Bring your soap box....I'm gonna borrow it

Bebe
Locked and loaded. Wait. I can't say that here, can I?? (being a smartass)
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Old 09-28-2011, 03:56 PM   #36 (permalink)
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How did it go?

It's 5PM tonight.
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Old 09-28-2011, 04:24 PM   #37 (permalink)
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ooops, free bump for the important stuff
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Old 09-28-2011, 05:38 PM   #38 (permalink)
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loading the kid up and on our way
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Old 09-28-2011, 09:54 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Was an open house format so you could go around the room and talk to people and mingle. The maps they had were already revised but still full of problems and errors. It is a start.

They said they expect the DEIS to come out on December 2nd so be prepared to deal with this through the next comment period over the holidays. when it comes out it will be a 45 day comment period. This one we are in now for scoping ends MONDAY October 3rd, so get looking at the map and documents and comment on what you think is good or bad about which spurs you like to use to access a camp.

They are not designating camping but are looking at spurs to access sites closer to where you like to go. The one spur that is now used well is overlooking Buck and is on the map to be added.

The other side of this is the easement for the County so that they can maintain the road and build some bridges.

The new District Ranger was not able to attend the meeting, but the new Forest Supervisor was there.

That is it in a nutshell, I know Bebe has a few things on her mind.

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Old 09-29-2011, 09:02 AM   #40 (permalink)
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SO the first thing I did was to scoop up Debbie Gaynor from the Pacific RD (great lady) and get some map issues cleared up, there are a ton of mistakes however, sometimes it's due to printing issues (per cranky steve), I'll give them that.

I'd like users opinions on some of these ideas I had for a few changes to present:

Bathroom placements -

They currently have a bathroom placed at soup bowl, and they already know that's not going to work. In addition they had one placed at winter camp, not going to work either. Both of these placement they recognize as such.

My idea: put one bathroom at what I call "Dysfunctional Camp". It's where we have one of the plywood poopers now, which is at the bottom of Walker hill where we placed that long stretch of corduroy a couple of years ago.

Another location would be at the top of the hill (slabs south of the trail) at Little Sluice. Most folks congregate here but don't camp. Parking area will also be a 75ft wide section of the slabs where most people will park.

Also, most folks who camp at Winter Camp bring their own toilet systems.

Debbie and I talked about the pooper size, we don't necessarily need to have a 1000 gallon tanks like the one at Ellis Creek and Loon, but a smaller 200 gallon tank would work, we have the poop truck that can pump it as often as necessary.

Camping Spurs -

First off, I know what I'm about to say will be controversial

When you look at the map, you see that Buck Island Lake is very heavy in camping areas and spurs, while there is nothing lakeside at Spider.

When Spider Lake and the trails back to it were closed a few years ago, there was a statement and an intent to re-open the west side of the lake to Camping again. While it will be much smaller than what we will have at Buck, I think now is the perfect time to get this in the process, propose it, and with a little logic and luck, get a spur trail opened back up so we can get back to Spider lake camping again.

So the idea of putting the pooper up at the top of the slabs at LS/SL serves 2 purposes, if we can put in a spur to camp at Spider lake, say 5 or 6 camping spots, then we can serve both the SL campers and the LS folks.

Like it?
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Old 09-29-2011, 11:51 AM   #41 (permalink)
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I love hearing other folks' names for spots on the trail... I'd never heard Dysfunctional Camp, but it makes me smile, and I immediately recognize where it would be. That's always been Walker Camp to me, but it works either way.

Did USFS provide that 75' number for parking South of LS? Their map scales out to 250 feet exactly for the width of the south-side area where they have proposed legal motorized access, and I like that number better. Dunno which they intend, but let's push for the largest area possible to retain access closest to what history has allowed.

FWIW, the Ellis Creek and Loon restroom tanks were designed large for a number of reasons that are specific to their locations. On-trail facilities can be smaller, the trick is balancing ease of installation and frequency of maintenance. IMHO, the sweet spot might be closer to 500 gallons.

Folks have started to hike/camp back along the North and West side of Spider, on the USFS land. It sure would be nice to get a spur road developed, but that's going to be a tough battle. Worth trying, at least, if for nothing other than negotiation theory... though it would indeed be nice to win. Most of the old routes to Spider crossed private property, so this would have to be a new route. FWIW 'lakeside' camping is unlikely to be permitted either place, especially with vehicles, because of broader USFS 200-feet-from-the-water policy. I worry about this and Ellis Creek, as well.

Good discussion, Jacquelyne!

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Old 09-29-2011, 12:05 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Camping Spurs -

First off, I know what I'm about to say will be controversial

When you look at the map, you see that Buck Island Lake is very heavy in camping areas and spurs, while there is nothing lakeside at Spider.

When Spider Lake and the trails back to it were closed a few years ago, there was a statement and an intent to re-open the west side of the lake to Camping again. While it will be much smaller than what we will have at Buck, I think now is the perfect time to get this in the process, propose it, and with a little logic and luck, get a spur trail opened back up so we can get back to Spider lake camping again.

So the idea of putting the pooper up at the top of the slabs at LS/SL serves 2 purposes, if we can put in a spur to camp at Spider lake, say 5 or 6 camping spots, then we can serve both the SL campers and the LS folks.

Like it?
Controversial?? Not on this board!! You are talking about regaining access to Spider. Or at least parking a little closer to the lake so people can camp there.

No controversy here!!!
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Old 09-29-2011, 12:10 PM   #43 (permalink)
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It's 100 feet from water sources.

When you pick your spot, make sure that it is

* On National Forest land. A Forest map may be purchased at most Forest Service offices.
* At least 100 feet away from streams and lakes, to help protect streamside vegetation, and prevent pollution.
* Above the high-water mark on all lakes and reservoirs.
* In a location that does not require you to travel cross country through the woods in your vehicle. Keep your vehicle on the road.
* Treated well. The beauty of the natural vegetation around your campsite is probably why you chose it. Keep it healthy and beautiful by not cutting anything down, not putting nails into trees, and treading carefully in meadow-like areas.

Restricted Areas - Dispersed camping around the following lakes is restricted because of heavy visitor use and the presence of summer homes: Ice House Reservoir, Gerle Creek Reservoir, Wrights Lake, Echo Lake, Silver Lake, Kirkwood Lake, Woods Lake, Caples Lake, and Stumpy Meadows Reservoir.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/recreation/dis-camp/
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Old 09-29-2011, 01:54 PM   #44 (permalink)
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It's 100 feet from water sources.
Thanks for the correction, I boobled up corridor and stand-off again. :roll-eyes:
200' stream corridor = 100' stand-off on either side. Gotta slow d-o-w-n.

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Old 09-29-2011, 02:05 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I don't have a map of the spider lake area. Google decide January was a good time to make map updates

I have the topo map the county made 2 years ago. 100' is about 1/4" on this map.

I would love to be able to park up near the lake and 100' is fine.
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:29 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I drew up a quick example:


Edit here's a better one
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:56 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I really like the idea of accessing Spider, but it is going to be a bugger getting vehicles there (people are easy) with the property lines (green) and the drainage (blue). I'll improve the map later off my topos, but this is quick work. I inked in the property lines and drainage as estimates, looking at the topo posted above and what I remember from the ground.

If you stay on USFS land, there's non-drivable vertical that wraps the northeast side of the lake. Crossing the drainage at the tip would be difficult, unless they build another freaking bridge. I'm cool with parking and hiking to a campsite (one of the best ways to get peace and quiet when the trail is crowded), but I know not everyone else is.

Let's keep discussing this, maybe other solutions will present.

Randii


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Old 09-29-2011, 03:07 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Who has an uber fast rig that can get me into Spider to do some recon on Sunday?
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Old 09-29-2011, 03:09 PM   #49 (permalink)
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I think yours is off.
The truth may be somewhere between - no worries.
When I get a chance (won't be until well after dark tonight at the earliest), I'll pull the data out of the maps I build for County, RTF, FOTR, etc. There's a piece of that map snapshotted in the RTF Property Purchase announcement thread: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...php?p=12235046

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Old 09-29-2011, 04:00 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Who has an uber fast rig that can get me into Spider to do some recon on Sunday?
Not uber fast but i can make it spider in 45mins...

I have to work on sunday though.
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