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Old 08-14-2012, 04:35 PM   #51 (permalink)
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The consequences of NOT acquiring the property would have likely resulted in acquisition by non-OHV-friendlies that would have likely worked to close Dirty Dozen, push more property into 'Wild and Scenic River" designation near Rubicon River, and threatened upstream access to Rubicon Trail for most areas between Mud Lake and the Buck Dam. RTF owning the parcel means we're very likely going to be able to 'wheel on that land!

Randii
likely

Randy, you really are not going to come on here and state that Mark Smith would have sold that property to enviros, are you? As such, the purchase was made to actually protect trail interests from Mark Smith. Please.

And thank you ATV and John for clarifying the other issues.
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Old 08-14-2012, 04:45 PM   #52 (permalink)
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You're welcome. I'm Ken btw...user name selected years ago...
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Old 08-14-2012, 04:56 PM   #53 (permalink)
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You're welcome. I'm Ken btw...user name selected years ago...
Every time I think of Ken and the Rubicon, I think of Ken Marcus. You are just slightly less irritating. OK? ATV.
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Old 08-14-2012, 05:08 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Every time I think of Ken and the Rubicon, I think of Ken Marcus. You are just slightly less irritating. OK? ATV.
That made me laugh.
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Old 08-14-2012, 05:40 PM   #55 (permalink)
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I've noticed that you have really great questions about the RTF butget diagram. The diagram is great for most people that want to know where the money goes. After reading all the threads where you have lots of questions I think you could really benefit from attending one of the RTF monthly meetings. I believe many of your questions could be answered alot better and your opinion's could heard. I have attended several meetings and learned alot. Since attending there meetings I have gotten alot more involved and learned alot about how RTF is run.
Thank you for your comments. I disagree with you slightly though. Some of the answers from these threads of late contain more information than I believe RTF would ever answer in a monthly meeting, or string of monthly meetings, for that matter.

Frankly, I really don't care where the money goes. My goal is to make sure that FOTR, or a similar entity, has more resources, more participation, and more cooperation, specifically, working directly with the county to ensure trail maintenance and construction projects are undertaken and completed. If Jerry is asking for 8%, well bless Jerry, this isn't about Jerry. But really what it means is he needs more participation, which will require that more folks feel like they are integrated into the cause. This is the concept that I have been speaking to all along. Stop the bleeding, grow the base, smash the competition.

Though, there have been many tough questions, and boiling frustrations that lead to RTF and RTP members receiving direct attention, I believe many of those folks have responded very unprofessionally, given their public profile positions. Rhetoric, sarcasm, avoidance, silence, black helicopters, tin foil hats, conspiracies, hardly the qualities of a professional on a public board. And unfortunately, it is far from over.

Someday, we may meet at one of those meetings that you speak, and then, you may clearly understand my motives, intent, and methods to ensure that all user groups are represented at the table. In the meantime, I can take the heat.

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Old 08-14-2012, 05:51 PM   #56 (permalink)
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likely
Randy, you really are not going to come on here and state that Mark Smith would have sold that property to enviros, are you? As such, the purchase was made to actually protect trail interests from Mark Smith. Please.
I don't believe Mark would have sold directly to anti's. That said, he might have sold it to SMUD (he would have been able to charge a higher price than to RTF, for certain!).

SMUD has been purchasing mitigation properties after the FERC relicensing, and it is not at all unusual for them to trade the land to USFS... that would be a BAD result, IMHO, setting the previous speculations in motion.

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Old 08-14-2012, 06:02 PM   #57 (permalink)
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My goal is to make sure that FOTR, or a similar entity, has more resources, more participation, and more cooperation, specifically, working directly with the county to ensure trail maintenance and construction projects are undertaken and completed.
I share that goal. If you have specific projects you want to see FOTR do, suggest here, or better yet join the FOTR mailing list. If you have specific ideas to enhance volunteerism, the same suggestions apply.

Dunno, Craig, it feels like you took a long, divisive way around to get to affirmative suggestions. It certainly provoked extensive discussion, and I'm not sure that straight suggestions about enhancing volunteerism would have done that in and of itself... but it feels a bit like you want to add onto a house, and commenced first with lighting several rooms of that house on fire.

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Someday, we may meet at one of those meetings that you speak, and then, you may clearly understand my motives, intent, and methods to ensure that all user groups are represented at the table. In the meantime, I can take the heat.
I'll say this clearly, then -- I don't appreciate divisive methods, even if I agree with your motives. You've basically said that you don't like RTF's methods, but yet you agree with some of their motives.

Craig, *you* may be able to handle the heat, but please consider that flogging dissent in Rubicon politics the way that you have risks decreasing volunteerism and funding, and threatening your goals.

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Old 08-14-2012, 06:04 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I don't believe Mark would have sold directly to anti's. That said, he might have sold it to SMUD (he would have been able to charge a higher price than to RTF, for certain!).

SMUD has been purchasing mitigation properties after the FERC relicensing, and it is not at all unusual for them to trade the land to USFS... that would be a BAD result, IMHO, setting the previous speculations in motion.

Randii
Randy, I don't know you any better than the words that you write and the accolades bestowed upon your reputation. I have given you exceptional latitude, even while you attempt to discredit my positions. After this issue, consider your words with more care. This mess doesn't need any more gas.
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Old 08-14-2012, 06:36 PM   #59 (permalink)
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What, are you 7 years old? All he asked was who the hell posted that and we go right back to the RTP/RTF no answering questions directly...was this not in the script given to you?

Dane






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Dunno, Craig, it feels like you took a long, divisive way around to get to affirmative suggestions. It certainly provoked extensive discussion, and I'm not sure that straight suggestions about enhancing volunteerism would have done that in and of itself... but it feels a bit like you want to add onto a house, and commenced first with lighting several rooms of that house on fire.


I'll say this clearly, then -- I don't appreciate divisive methods, even if I agree with your motives. You've basically said that you don't like RTF's methods, but yet you agree with some of their motives.

Craig, *you* may be able to handle the heat, but please consider that flogging dissent in Rubicon politics the way that you have risks decreasing volunteerism and funding, and threatening your goals.

Randii
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Old 08-14-2012, 06:36 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Dunno, Craig, it feels like you took a long, divisive way around to get to affirmative suggestions. It certainly provoked extensive discussion, and I'm not sure that straight suggestions about enhancing volunteerism would have done that in and of itself... but it feels a bit like you want to add onto a house, and commenced first with lighting several rooms of that house on fire.
Randii
Randy, I can not control how you feel, nor do I have any interest in engaging in a conversation related to your self serving grandstanding analogies.

The one thing that you are right about, and the record reflects it, a call to volunteerism probably will not be the answer.

Other than that, do you always implode and call the meeting on your terms?
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:02 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Frankly, I really don't care where the money goes. My goal is to make sure that FOTR, or a similar entity, has more resources, more participation, and more cooperation, specifically, working directly with the county to ensure trail maintenance and construction projects are undertaken and completed. If Jerry is asking for 8%, well bless Jerry, this isn't about Jerry. But really what it means is he needs more participation, which will require that more folks feel like they are integrated into the cause. This is the concept that I have been speaking to all along. Stop the bleeding, grow the base, smash the competition.
I have thought long and hard about getting into this discussion, but I think I need to chime in to let you know what is going on with FOTR.

The 8% of the monies that go to FOTR from RTF is what is asked for on an as needed basis when grant funds do not cover everything. Much of the monies that get spent on projects that FOTR works on, comes from grant money. I am by no means an expert on all this, but I do know that whatever FOTR has needed, its there. Thatís why I get very serious about getting all the paper work after any project to the county because all volunteer hours need to be reported to get matching grant money.

That being said, RTF has always supported any project that comeís up. Itís not just me that comes up with the projects (there are many more people that have ideas that we just need to get out and to act upon). Itís a team effort that is in motion all the time. RTF pays for the fantastic dinners that get prepared by the RockHeads, trailers to help with moving anything thatís needed on the trail, etc. Anytime I have contacted RTF about money the response is fast and positive.

In the normal course of events, I usually get a call from the county about projects. So we are in constant communication.

As far as your above statement ďBut really what it means is he needs more participationĒ, I have always asked for input from everyone. There are some bad feelings about the trail right now as far as the county working on the trail. We need to get past that. Itís here, we need to work with it. There still are projects out there that need to be done, and that is what FOTR is there for. Volunteer hours have been down, that is obvious. If you have a fix or any ideas, please bring them to the table/email list and they will be discussed and acted upon.

And remember, everyone that sits at the RTF table is FOTR. Anyone that is passionate about the trail and wants it stay open for all to enjoy is part of FOTR.

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Old 08-15-2012, 05:44 PM   #62 (permalink)
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As far as your above statement ďBut really what it means is he needs more participationĒ, I have always asked for input from everyone. There are some bad feelings about the trail right now as far as the county working on the trail. We need to get past that. Itís here, we need to work with it. There still are projects out there that need to be done, and that is what FOTR is there for. Volunteer hours have been down, that is obvious. If you have a fix or any ideas, please bring them to the table/email list and they will be discussed and acted upon.
And you are a true gentleman Jerry. Like I said in the post, this isn't a Jerry issue, it is a convergence of lawsuits, regulations, long held animosities, changes, etc... I could add about twenty more issues but will stop because I know that you get it.

But overall, my point in this matter is, and has been in every subject matter that I discuss here, without growing the pie, and that is an exercise in diminishing returns related to the economy, trail difficultly, and in my opinion, the most substantial issue, the organizer's inability through clear and concise communications to reengage lost souls, I believe it will become more and more difficult to get the work done in support of the county.

I may take you up on that discussion when I get some free time. In the mean time, please continue the good work.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:49 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Scott (or others).
do you have the same pie chart showing the income side?
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:56 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Scott (or others).
do you have the same pie chart showing the income side?
Great question....We don't. But that's a good idea. I will put that on my "to do" list.
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Old 08-16-2012, 02:06 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Nice Job Jerry especially this:

"Anyone that is passionate about the trail and wants it stay open for all to enjoy is part of FOTR."


Thanks for chiming in
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Old 08-16-2012, 03:36 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Nice Job Jerry especially this:

"Anyone that is passionate about the trail and wants it stay open for all to enjoy is part of FOTR."


Thanks for chiming in
Hey Dave can you call me? If you need my number let me know. Thanks,

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Old 08-16-2012, 07:18 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Our next meeting is this Thursday at 6:30 pm at 3971 Durock Rd Shingle Springs around back and up the stairs
I went today and there was only one vehicle in the parking lot with a RTF sticker and no one answered the door.
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Old 08-16-2012, 07:54 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Oh crap, it was yesterday, that was a typo. It's on the 3rd Wednesday of the month.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:00 PM   #69 (permalink)
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I went today and there was only one vehicle in the parking lot with a RTF sticker and no one answered the door.
Please no Tin Foil hats

I'm sorry about typing the wrong day I owe you a or a bottle of wine

Please come to Sept meeting

Thank you Rusty
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:59 AM   #70 (permalink)
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After this issue, consider your words with more care. This mess doesn't need any more gas.
Pot calling the kettle black.
I think that's exactly what Randii was trying to tell you...

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Craig, it feels like you took a long, divisive way around to get to affirmative suggestions.

...it feels a bit like you want to add onto a house, and commenced first with lighting several rooms of that house on fire.

I'll say this clearly, then -- I don't appreciate divisive methods, even if I agree with your motives.

Craig, *you* may be able to handle the heat, but please consider that flogging dissent in Rubicon politics the way that you have risks decreasing volunteerism and funding, and threatening your goals.

Randii

I think Randii DOES do and has pretty much always done a great job of considering his words, as well as trying his best to represent everybody's interests in all the work that he does. I'd even go so far as to say he is one of the best at it. It ain't easy- his burnout is understandable. I'm glad he's still plugging away despite it.


What you really have to understand this: There is NO plan that will satisfy everybody! Not your plan, not anybody else's. The "best" we can hope for is that everybody ends up a little unhappy. You're unhappy, I'm unhappy, etc. Everyone gives a little.


The worst scenario would be that somebody gets everything they want and others get none. RMK gets what they want: trail obviously gets closed. We get the free for all the trail used to be: eventually the trail gets closed. Property owners get their own private access (no, I don't think that's what any of them really want): trail is effectively closed. Etc...

I think maybe once people understand that we ALL have to sacrifice and NOBODY really gets what they want, they might have an easier time accepting/appreciating how/why things are happening the way they are.

I think things are going in the right direction overall, despite all the losses and hassles along the way.

Last edited by ErikB; 08-17-2012 at 09:00 AM.
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:20 AM   #71 (permalink)
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The worst scenario would be that somebody gets everything they want and others get none. RMK gets what they want: trail obviously gets closed.
That is very well said.

That's what compromise is all about. Status quo from 2003 isn't going to happen and the trail closed isn't going to happen, if we the users step up. So that means the status quo folks are unhappy and the closure people are unhappy. That's a win, in my opinion because I can still drive through my favorite place on earth.
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