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Old 06-26-2003, 11:01 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Thumbs up FOTR Pics from June 18th

Click on the link to view them. Sorry to lazy to post them all.
http://www.rcrc4x4.com/cgi-bin/yabb/...num=1056024633
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Old 06-27-2003, 08:35 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Thanks for the pics Miguel
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Old 06-27-2003, 09:04 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Thanks, also don't be afraid to post on that BBS, LOL.
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Old 06-27-2003, 09:21 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Is the stacking on Million dollar hill going to be permanent, or just for the jambo? I always called it thousand dollar hill.
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Old 06-27-2003, 10:09 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I am a little confused about this?
The Rubicon Oversight Committee (ROC) and the Friends of The Rubicon (FOTR) are alowing this to happen?
FRIENDS DON"T LET FRIENDS PAVE THE RUBICON!
Hey there is a tee shirt saying for you guys.
Whats up with this. My understanding from a post I had made earlier in the week about the gate keeper was that it was going to get some rocks stacked because of "EROSION". Because of erosion and only because of erosion do I think that that was a good idea.

Quote from RANDII
FOTR has been working this issue for quite some time with the Rubicon Oversite Committee (ROC) ... this is still our best way to positively impact management of the trail. One person (or one club, one BBS, one association, one whatever) changing the trail to suit there needs (whether making it easier or harder) isn't gonna work... and seems pretty damn selfish and arrogant. We've got to work together to manage the trail together, or this will just devolve into the same old infighting that the Greenies love to see in our midst. Let's work together within the established structure of Friends of the Rubicon (FOTR) to manage our trail...

Quote from some guy on RCRC named LOCO
"appropriate name"
Quote 1
This is the bypass above little sluice that drops into the end of it. There is a proposed cement party to be held here. The cement is to keep the rocks in place and keep the trail semi fun for the people who are not "extreme". Little sluice will be kept the same. The cement will be mixed with some dirt so it doesn't appear as cement and add some more over it.
Quote 2
same picture as above, but shows the works that needs to be done to make the Jeep Jambo happy.
Quote 3
Another part going to buck between "million dollar hill" and the previous picture. This needs to be made a bit easier so Jeep jambo and go over. Needs some rock stacking.



This is a contradiction of what has been said in the past.

I can understand paving parts of Cadillac hill for saftey reasons (PEOPLE DIEING) but not anywhere else.

Once again I am so PISSED OFF that I am having a hard time writing this.

Isn't there a trail guide to help these Jeeps over this stuff if they are to scared or unprepared?

Are these people scared to get body damage.

Whats next?
Hot showers on the trail?
A Kiosk at sluice to sell Tee shirts and sun block?


This is a very sad day when one orginization or Club or whatever the fawk they are ( I do not own a Jeep) thinks that they can modify the trail for their event. (I mean The Jeepers Jamboree)

This is not directed toward the orginizations that organize groups to help keep the trail open by DOING TRAIL MAINTANANCE NOT MODIFICATION.

Sorry for the bitchin but I had to say my 2 cents
FUJJ
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Old 06-27-2003, 10:58 AM   #6 (permalink)
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THAT GUY...


I have very mixed feelings about the organizations that exist from financial gain from the Con.. Its down right Hypocrisy that certain individuals in these organizations have publicly said itís not ok to modify the trail to suit anyoneís needs. I.E. those who think the trail isnít hard enough, so they push boulders into it. But these same individuals think itís ok to modify the trail to their needs (keep it easy for their mall crawling caravans) To me, each of these ideals are one in the same, both believe it is ok to modify the trail to their needs.

That said, certain individuals responsible for starting this whole thing deserve some respect as a few of them have gone above and beyond the call of duty and purchased land to help preserve the conís future. For that Iím indebted with gratitude, but does that mean anyone person should get the final say on what happens to the trail?

I donít totally agree with an all out paving, double yellow-stripped bypass above the boxÖ But fawk itís a HELL of a lot better idea than doing it to the box! Itís a compromise I think the wheeling community has to make and should! Itís not like the paving and the double yellow stripe is being done at the gate keeper it's miles into the trail. I seriously doubt anyone would let the gate keeper get paved either. That would just let more ďOutlaw WheelersĒ onto the trail
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Last edited by Danger Ranger; 06-27-2003 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 06-27-2003, 11:38 AM   #7 (permalink)
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The Rubicon Oversight Committee (ROC) and the Friends of The Rubicon (FOTR) are alowing this to happen?
FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS PAVE THE RUBICON!

When you have a more full story, this will make more sense. Plans are being made for LIMITED work in LIMITED areas to minimize traffic problems, erosion, and resource-loading.

Loco spoke of using concrete to secure a shorter-than-100ft section of slope on the Little Sluice bypass, and closing the other user-created non-sanctioned bypasses, all while keeping Little Sluice unchanged. This is a good compromise for a wide range of user groups (including Jeep Jamboree, who represents some of the more-stock users of the trail) -- pretty much all the folks that have showed up at the meetings have agreed that this is a good plan that works for most users. What unique concerns have me missed, THAT GUY?

Loco also referenced Million Dollar Hill, and limited rock-stacking. Again, this is the least intrusive compromise that allows continued use by the existing user groups.

IMHO, the compromises that are on the table are not 'selling out' to Jeep Jamboree. I don't view the compromises as such, but even if I did, I could stomach a certain amount of that, since Jeep Jamboree is one of the owners of significant segments of property that the Rubicon trail crosses. As property owners, they certainly deserve a part in the decision-making process. Not say-so, not veto, but certainly a share, just as other trail users do.

THAT GUY, and anyone else interested, let's get together and talk this out in person. I live in Sacramento -- you live in Concord. There must be some beer joint between us? I think I can provide a bulk of the history and explanation, and then you can draw your own conclusions, based on better information... email me: randii@4x4wire.com

Randii
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Old 06-27-2003, 11:56 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Randii,

I just got off the phone with THAT GUY. We were discussing the financial aspects of the future of the Rubicon, and how certain groups impact that future directly. We do not claim to know enough about the subject, but are trying to compile information. We do know that JJ makes a positve impact on the trail. I would like to hear more about that in detail. This is not meant to bash JJ, it just seems to be a slippery slope of change. I am concerned about excessive concessions for one group that may compromise that which the trail is.
I for one would enjoy sitting down with you to discuss past and present issues of our beloved trail.
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Last edited by Tom Boyd; 06-27-2003 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 06-27-2003, 12:12 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I have very mixed feelings about the organizations that exist from financial gain from the Con...
Why? As long as they participate in managing the resource, and don't end-run around the process, what makes them any different than other trail users?

Someone left a soapbox out, so I'm stepping up onto it...

Trail modifications... trail maintenance... making it harder... making it easier... making it different... all these are side issues. The central issue is really CHANGES TO THE TRAIL, and the reality is that even the lightest human footstep on the trail leaves some minimal impact, some minimal change. Nature changes the trail each year, as well (rockslides, erosion, let's face it: bugs, bunnies, and bears impact the trail as well). The trail is in a continual state of flux: how do we manage this change to our public resource?

In most cases, our default focus is to minimize our impact -- minimize changes -- by avoiding wheelspin, packing out what we pack in, using Rubican toilets, etc. In a handful of cases, we elect to change the trail to meet the communities' needs. Don't get lost in whether the trail becomes easier or harder, who supports it, or who doesn't support it... those are red herrings. As responsible trail users, our task is to work with the various government land managers and private land owners, and make decisions that are best for the PUBLIC resource that is the Rubicon Trail.

There are as many goals as there are trail users... Do we want to restore the trail to how it was in the early 1900s, when it was an access road to the Springs, in the 1960s when 32" Norseman tires were hard-core, in the 1980s before the first boulders were pushed in, in 1996 before the trail was rerouted at Buck Island Reservoir, or even in 2002 before the near-universally-approved reroute was made to lighten resource-loading in the Ellis Creek watershed north of Pleasant Lake? You can make an argument for every past year, for every unique user, for every user group... the trick is to manage those different goals and different opinions together, through a common process.

The Rubicon Oversight Committee (ROC) has proven success in these last few years, providing that common managment process. The ROC is where decisions need to be discussed, debated, and finalized... it is OUR venue, where trail users, land managers, and property owners all get together and decide how to manage the trail.

The only thing that is certain in life is change -- and the ROC is how we manage change to our public trail. The ROC is accountable to all users that choose to engage it, but you have make your voice heard.

Randii
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Old 06-27-2003, 12:16 PM   #10 (permalink)
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The Rubicon is a tremendously unique resource -- and our emotions and reactions are strong because of our love for it. That's more than enough of a common ground to pull people together on issues.

I would like to hear more about that in detail. This is not meant to bash JJ, it just seems to be a slippery slope of change. I am concerned about excessive concessions for one group that may compromise that which the trail is.
I for one would enjoy sitting down with you to discuss past and present issues of our beloved trail.

Great... by no means do I know all that there is to know about Rubicon, but I'd love to share what I *do* know over a beverage (or a dozen). Let's hook up offline...

Randii
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- KOH Pledge Drive: for 4405 KOH Pledge #4
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Old 06-27-2003, 01:09 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by THAT GUY
I am a little confused about this?
The Rubicon Oversight Committee (ROC) and the Friends of The Rubicon (FOTR) are alowing this to happen?

This is a very sad day when one orginization or Club or whatever the fawk they are ( I do not own a Jeep) thinks that they can modify the trail for their event. (I mean The Jeepers Jamboree)

This is not directed toward the orginizations that organize groups to help keep the trail open by DOING TRAIL MAINTANANCE NOT MODIFICATION.

Sorry for the bitchin but I had to say my 2 cents
FUJJ
What you also need to understand is there were many groups represented that day of the discussion about these changes. We ALL agreed. No big arguments, just some discussions in a positive manner. Everyone there was amazed.

I can point out each one in this picture.

Environmental Stewardship Planning
FOTR
POR
Jeep Jamboree
JJ USA
CA Parks and Recreation
El Dorado County
El Dorado National Forest
Sierra Center for Conservancy
El Dorado County Sheriff
I even saw a group of mountain bikers.
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Old 06-27-2003, 01:16 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Boyd
Is the stacking on Million dollar hill going to be permanent, or just for the jambo? I always called it thousand dollar hill.
Yes, it is THOUSAND dollar hill.
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Old 06-27-2003, 02:25 PM   #13 (permalink)
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D'oh... I was thinking of Million Dollar Mile on Golden Spike in Moab, and typing Thousand Dollar Hill on the Rubicon....

Where do I apply for a refund?
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Old 06-27-2003, 03:15 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Thank you for that information. You must understand that any anger that I have is because I love the Rubicon not only for the trail but also for its beauty.


Hey randii
Next we can argue over who will pay for the
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Old 06-27-2003, 03:50 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by randii
I have very mixed feelings about the organizations that exist from financial gain from the Con...
Why? As long as they participate in managing the resource, and don't end-run around the process, what makes them any different than other trail users?

Randii
Ok, ok you got a good pointÖ I guess I wasnít very impressed with smith and manwaring from that one public meeting that turned into a bitch fest Thatís probably what turned me off to them.
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Old 06-27-2003, 04:30 PM   #16 (permalink)
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You must understand that any anger that I have is because I love the Rubicon not only for the trail but also for its beauty.
I understand completely! If this was some dirt road through an abandoned quarry, fewer folks would care to this degree!

Oh, and YOU are buying.

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Old 06-28-2003, 07:58 AM   #17 (permalink)
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To Danger Ranger:

Just an FYI, Mainwaring was absolutely not part of the bitch fest and didn't speak publicly at either Public Forum.

Thanks
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Old 06-30-2003, 10:22 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: To Danger Ranger:

Quote:
Originally posted by fourthgeneration
Just an FYI, Mainwaring was absolutely not part of the bitch fest and didn't speak publicly at either Public Forum.

Thanks
ah once again i have shoved my foot in my mouth. Thanks for pointing that out... can someone inform me who that was next to mark smith?
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Old 06-30-2003, 03:11 PM   #19 (permalink)
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There were several property owners there, I believe it was one of them but not sure which one. I know some of the names but I like my feet on the ground
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