Who Decides? - Page 2 - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > Land Use and Trails > Rubicon Trail
Notices

Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-28-2016, 04:45 PM   #26 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Member # 160801
Posts: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bebe View Post
How do we fix it?

The thread is titled - Who Decides?

We have an idea, but that fact that we don't know the chain of decision makers is the issue. We know where the buck stops, but where does it start? What is the process?

Would a group of user advocates, not beholden to the County, not beholden to the profiteers, not beholden to the NIMBY's, be a viable alternative?

Something similar to a GAO? Keep in mind we are talking about on the ground works advocacy, making sure the money goes where it should etc.
Getting info like this to the off-road masses is a start. MOST off-roaders in our state still believe that supporting FOTR and RTF is in our best interests. Not only time spent, but some still send them lots of money with the belief that these orgs are working FOR THEM!!!! This is obviously not the case, but most do not know that. They think that giving them money is empowering our stake in the trail.

We need to direct the manpower and funds into a group that works IN OUR interests, who is held accountable by us. Whether a group like that currently exists or not, I do not know? Whether we can reasonably keep a group from becoming corrupted and eventually selling us out is unknown. I would support such a group if it did exist. BUT, the first step is to acknowledge that there currently DOES NOT EXIST a group that is working in our interest for the Rubicon Trail.

I think we are taking that first step.
desert dogg is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2016, 06:20 PM   #27 (permalink)
Abd Motorsports
 
edabd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Member # 89109
Location: Lincoln, CA
Posts: 1,180
Just like the little sluice paving that had a huge thread on it, once again, it seems as though there are lots of details being missed here, more than I even know. People forget that there has to maintenance for the trail to stay open. Some agree, some don't. Some are involved, some aren't. Just saying. Hope this thread does off soon.
__________________
Abd Motorsports, #4475

Placer County Crawlers - President 2011-2017

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Rubicon Trail Foundation
Friends of Fordyce
edabd is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Old 09-28-2016, 06:45 PM   #28 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 9,333
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
All I know is that stuff is happening in a vacuum and it needs to stop.

All we need to understand is John Arenz and Vickie Sanders. Leave FOTR and Shannon out of it.
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL

Last edited by Bebe; 09-28-2016 at 06:47 PM.
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-28-2016, 06:58 PM   #29 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Member # 128321
Posts: 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by edabd View Post
Just like the little sluice paving that had a huge thread on it, once again, it seems as though there are lots of details being missed here, more than I even know. People forget that there has to maintenance for the trail to stay open. Some agree, some don't. Some are involved, some aren't. Just saying. Hope this thread does off soon.
You and me again...

What details do you "think" are missing?

I don't know of a single user arguing against maintenance. It appears to me, and it is a position that I support, that the argument is about surprise construction work, the lack of RTF leadership with respect to communication, and conflicts of interest that make Joe Blow Jeeper feel helpless.

Anyway, I do appreciate your maintenance work in Old Sluice, please stay with it.

PS: Regarding your "some aren't" involved remark. "Blind loyalty is not loyalty at all." - Not my words, but I and many others live by them.

PSS: To stay on thread title, "Who Decides?", of course trail users decide. The problem is they trusted others with their voices and leverage. Users giveth, users can taketh away - fast.
cjcraig7 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2016, 08:32 PM   #30 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Member # 128321
Posts: 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bebe View Post

IMHO the only way to get in front of it is by starting a new group that attends meetings, has paid members, and can ADVOCATE for the users.
I came to the mountain in 2010 to semi-retire, and with the hope in raising money and becoming a benefactor for groups that support the Rubicon Trail. I recognized early on that things were pretty screwed up.

I believe that an Advocacy Group could operate effectively in parallel with the efforts that currently exist.

I noticed in one of your post that you spoke of a poll. I would assume that the poll would be utilizef to gauge the interest of bringing the lost souls and energetic newbs back into meaningful roles supporting "their" trail.

Just so they know you are serious, if you choose to start the group, I will be prepared to provide the same financial and services support that I had originally intended to provide RTF.

Good luck.

Last edited by cjcraig7; 09-28-2016 at 08:35 PM.
cjcraig7 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-29-2016, 04:55 PM   #31 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
cruzila's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Member # 6650
Location: Garden Valley
Posts: 5,602
Quote:
Originally Posted by edabd View Post
Why is soup bowl priority over fixing winter camp? Seems like tje focus is being diverted for some reason and I'm not understanding why?
You do realize that "fixing" Winter Camp was accomplished earlier this year right???
__________________
Scott Johnston
Rubicon Trail Foundation
Founding Director
Past President 2010-2012
Retired Director 2004-2013

DuraLine winch rope!!

cruzila is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-29-2016, 06:10 PM   #32 (permalink)
Phobohomic
 
fermentor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Member # 55687
Location: sacramento
Posts: 1,093
Quote:
Originally Posted by cruzila View Post
You do realize that "fixing" Winter Camp was accomplished earlier this year right???
When did that take place? I didn't see any celebratory circle-jerk for that accomplishment. Last thing I saw (here) was a bunch of rock "allegedly" intended for winter camp was diverted to "pave" LS. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/rubic...-2016-why.html
__________________
Dale
RUBICON ROCK HEADS

______________________________________________

R.I.P. Dennis Mayer. W2DWM. Rubicon Rock Head & Pirate of the Rubicon.
fermentor is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-29-2016, 08:18 PM   #33 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
cruzila's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Member # 6650
Location: Garden Valley
Posts: 5,602
Hey Dale, I'm pretty sure I saw it on another social media sites. Admittedly I am not a regular here as much as I was.
__________________
Scott Johnston
Rubicon Trail Foundation
Founding Director
Past President 2010-2012
Retired Director 2004-2013

DuraLine winch rope!!

cruzila is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2016, 08:50 PM   #34 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member # 117547
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 1,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by cruzila View Post
You do realize that "fixing" Winter Camp was accomplished earlier this year right???
There has been no work done at winter camp this year. Just bare dirt trail where the water usually builds up. Which would have been the perfect place for all that extra fill rock that they dumped into the middle of little sluice about a month ago.
Attached Images
 
__________________
83 toy pickup, 02 TJ, 02 GMC 2500HD, 86 4runner
Trailbusters4x4 club Solano County
ECV 1004
FuzzyZ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2016, 08:52 PM   #35 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member # 117547
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 1,577
.
Attached Images
 
__________________
83 toy pickup, 02 TJ, 02 GMC 2500HD, 86 4runner
Trailbusters4x4 club Solano County
ECV 1004
FuzzyZ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-03-2016, 03:36 AM   #36 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Member # 684554
Posts: 40
I thought there was a post with pictures showing some chain link fencing being rolled out on the ground at Winter camp
__________________
Play hard, age early.
L!ghtfoot is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-03-2016, 12:22 PM   #37 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member # 117547
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 1,577
No fencing. Only work that has been done there recently was to cut down a bunch of trees along that section of trail.

So who ever thinks that laying cement at the easy bypass to soup bowl instead of working on fixing the one section of trail that can close the trail(but could easily be fixed). Needs to re-think their priorities and think about what's good for the trail over all.

So yes, rock that was supposed to go for winter camp got dumped right into the middle of little sluice(what they claim was an accident). So why haven't the just organized a work party to use the trailers that are available to move that rock that got dumped in the wrong spot to the correct spot(winter camp) only a short distance away?
__________________
83 toy pickup, 02 TJ, 02 GMC 2500HD, 86 4runner
Trailbusters4x4 club Solano County
ECV 1004
FuzzyZ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-03-2016, 03:26 PM   #38 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Member # 684554
Posts: 40
Yeah, they probably put the fencing down then picked it back up and hauled it back to the kiosk



Or maybe it's burred underneath rock and you can't see it so it doesn't exist. BTW, if the fencing isn't visible then kudos to the crew that did the work.
__________________
Play hard, age early.

Last edited by L!ghtfoot; 10-03-2016 at 03:28 PM.
L!ghtfoot is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-03-2016, 05:40 PM   #39 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
cruzila's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Member # 6650
Location: Garden Valley
Posts: 5,602
Lightfoot has it right. Fuzzy, the very picture you have showing a hood also shows the rock that was dumped at Winter Camp. I don't get what the issue is?
__________________
Scott Johnston
Rubicon Trail Foundation
Founding Director
Past President 2010-2012
Retired Director 2004-2013

DuraLine winch rope!!

cruzila is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-03-2016, 06:52 PM   #40 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 9,333
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
That's not winter camp.
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-03-2016, 07:15 PM   #41 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member # 117547
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 1,577
Any way, The area is still no where fixed to where it needs to be. The pic you posted is a little ways past the turn at winter camp. That is just about a 20' section and wasn't even the worst or deepest part when the wet weather comes. The trail use there is still in jepordy of temp closure until the other sections in winter camp get fixed also.
__________________
83 toy pickup, 02 TJ, 02 GMC 2500HD, 86 4runner
Trailbusters4x4 club Solano County
ECV 1004

Last edited by FuzzyZ; 10-03-2016 at 07:16 PM.
FuzzyZ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2016, 07:49 AM   #42 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Member # 160801
Posts: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by L!ghtfoot View Post
Yeah, they probably put the fencing down then picked it back up and hauled it back to the kiosk
Ummmm, that pic you posted is NOT winter camp.

Edit: oops, dupe of Bebe's post.

Last edited by desert dogg; 10-05-2016 at 07:50 AM.
desert dogg is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2016, 05:09 PM   #43 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Member # 684554
Posts: 40
maybe, maybe not, I don't know as I haven't been that far on the trail since the Juniper fell in LS. Regardless, the photo is pretty darned close and indicates that it probably has enough standing water to close the trail at times.

What are the gps coordinates for the location that is causing the seasonal closures versus those in the picture? I guess we find out soon enough one way or another if the work was adequate to prevent a seasonal closure.
__________________
Play hard, age early.
L!ghtfoot is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-06-2016, 03:31 PM   #44 (permalink)
Phobohomic
 
fermentor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Member # 55687
Location: sacramento
Posts: 1,093
Quote:
Originally Posted by L!ghtfoot View Post
maybe, maybe not, I don't know as I haven't been that far on the trail since the Juniper fell in LS. Regardless, the photo is pretty darned close and indicates that it probably has enough standing water to close the trail at times.

What are the gps coordinates for the location that is causing the seasonal closures versus those in the picture? I guess we find out soon enough one way or another if the work was adequate to prevent a seasonal closure.
Can't help with GPS Robert, but County monitoring pics look pretty similar in March 2015 report (next to last page). http://www.edcgov.us/Government/Rubi...ssessment.aspx
Maybe the Winter Camp nomenclature is proximity based? Maybe "Those in the knows" could help folks with some explanations about how "Winter Camp" has been adequately "fixed"?
__________________
Dale
RUBICON ROCK HEADS

______________________________________________

R.I.P. Dennis Mayer. W2DWM. Rubicon Rock Head & Pirate of the Rubicon.
fermentor is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-06-2016, 06:07 PM   #45 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Member # 684554
Posts: 40
Awesome link there partner, thank you. The picture on the right side of page 5 under the site assessment for Winter Camp IS the same location as the work that took place as indicated in the picture I posted earlier.

The work done to the trail was spot on!!!!
__________________
Play hard, age early.
L!ghtfoot is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-18-2016, 07:06 PM   #46 (permalink)
Wheeler
 
speedy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Member # 19392
Location: Auburn Ca.
Posts: 376
Name:  4441E5F4-1440-4FAE-A64B-0EFC91BD23CF.jpg
Views: 358
Size:  90.9 KB

We may never know who decides.

This picture of the current FOTR trail boss Shannon Chard, the one on the right, shows exactly how they feel about the volunteers and trail users asking questions and expressing their concerns about the trail.


mock
mäk/Submit
verb
1. tease or laugh at in a scornful or contemptuous manner.
"he mocks them as Washington insiders"
synonyms:
ridicule, jeer at, sneer at, deride, scorn, make fun of, laugh at, scoff at, tease, taunt;

There is no excuse or apology needed for this mockery. She should resign her position effective immediately.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Bebe's"On Board Mechanic"
speedy is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-18-2016, 08:10 PM   #47 (permalink)
Rock God
 
Curly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Member # 20205
Location: California
Posts: 1,464
I truly am saddened by that picture, it just speaks volumes in so many ways. Regardless of situation, rumors or truth. To be mocked or to mock the very community we hold so dear by folks we hold so high is a hard pill to swallow.

I have seen this happen twice in as many months (different folks) and i'm hopeful this is not a pattern but it would seem on the surface at least that some feel mockery, condescension, censorship and patronizing are the appropriate response to legitimate questions and concerns.

If this is truly the path we are on I am again just saddened to no end. I've said my piece, met with folks and voiced my concerns. I'm in a holding pattern hoping for some type of acknowledgment of the deeper, underlying issue, communication! We have none and some not only think thats okay but also promote it.

This is a trail with a community, it belongs to the people and as such any major/pivotal decisions should be derived with the input of that community or at least a sense of transparency. Nothing of this magnitude and import can be controlled, or should be controlled by just two people. No one persons input is less important than any other. All input should be respected and given curtesy.

It has been said here and other places that it's easy to sit back and bitch about something. I will agree that's a fair statement but I think its fair to say that its also damn easy to dismiss and mock someones input or opinion when it doesn't quite fit your agenda.

All I got to say about that! Back to calming the demons in my head I go

Tim.
__________________
KI6PPU
It's very black and white. It becomes Gray when you give quarter....
Curly is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-18-2016, 08:28 PM   #48 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Member # 184396
Posts: 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bebe View Post
That's not winter camp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by desert dogg View Post
Ummmm, that pic you posted is NOT winter camp.

Edit: oops, dupe of Bebe's post.
I am sorry if I am missing something here, but please explain why you are saying this is not winter camp? The area where the rock was laid is exactly what is shown in the pictures on the Rubicon Trail Site Assessment and is the deepest part of that stretch/the area that always holds water.

Furthermore, can you please explain to me how the Winter Camp problems have not been fixed? The rock was properly dumped and spread at the monitoring site... what more is there to do there?
Jeep450r is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-18-2016, 09:06 PM   #49 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 9,333
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
The issue is water that is deep enough to "rinse contaminants" from a vehicle and contaminate the "Waters of the State". That area needs about 4 more loads of 26k a load rock to prevent "rinsing".

Winter Camp is officially the open camp area near the entrance to little sluice. Some refer to it as the "Y" (two routes to choose from). The area they show as winter camp is in fact a closed camping area. I refer to it as the big turn before Winter Camp.

Accidentally - rock that was designated for this area was dumped into little sluice instead. Hence, while the work may be complete on "paper", it is far from being able to stop the rinsing of contaminants.

Here is what it looked like after last weekends rain, never mind the fools in tinfoil hats. You should be able to see the rock that was dumped, and you can't.
Attached Images
 
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL

Last edited by Bebe; 10-18-2016 at 09:34 PM.
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-18-2016, 09:16 PM   #50 (permalink)
Wheeler
 
speedy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Member # 19392
Location: Auburn Ca.
Posts: 376
Name:  soup bowl.jpg
Views: 203
Size:  74.9 KB

Maybe this picture is more appropriate for the title of this thread.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Bebe's"On Board Mechanic"

Last edited by speedy; 10-18-2016 at 09:20 PM.
speedy is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

** A VERIFICATION EMAIL IS SENT TO THIS ADDRESS TO COMPLETE REGISTRATION!! **

Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.