Who Decides? - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > Land Use and Trails > Rubicon Trail
Notices

Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-27-2016, 09:37 AM   #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Simple Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Member # 12635
Location: Sparks, NV
Posts: 813
Who Decides?

So, FOTR has scheduled a work party to make the Rubicon easier near Soup Bowl. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/rubic...ll-closed.html We assume that El Dorado County has signed off on this work. But have the users signed off on it?

The debate is whether this and other similar projects are due to an actual safety/water quality issue or is it just making an easier bypass for those who want or need it?

This is not the first act of trail maintenance that has been done in the name of safety that has upset the users. Back in 2014, a rock on Cadillac Hill, just below V-rock, was drilled and blasted. Someone literally took the top off it. I posted about this in 2014: https://theotherrubicon.com/?s=who+decides

So the questions becomes “How do we keep either county from doing things we, the users, don’t want done?” Or even, “How do we find out about future maintenance efforts prior to them being voted on and implemented?”

I’m calling out RTF to be that organization for us. They already attend most of those meetings and if they don’t, they should. This would include the Rubicon Oversight Committee (ROC), El Dorado Parks & Recreation meetings and both Placer and El Dorado county supervisors meetings when any Rubicon issue will be discussed. RTF should post on their website every maintenance effort and how to comment on it prior to it being voted on.

This will not work for those groups, individuals or organizations that just go out and do ‘maintenance’ without getting anyone’s approval. This also needs to stop and I again call on RTF to address these groups or just the public in general to ask that no ‘rogue’ maintenance efforts take place on the Rubicon.

Decades ago, Del’s vision included a “Joint Powers Board” with representatives from both counties, all three forests, both water boards, RTF, FOTR and users groups from both ends of the trail making up one ‘body’ that governed everything about the Rubicon, both sides, 50’ wide. Maybe it’s time we pushed for that.

I have already emailed the president and vice president of RTF asking them to do just this and to join in on this conversation, on this board.


.
__________________
Doug Barr
Lake Tahoe Hi-Lo's
Hills Angels 4wd Club
North Tahoe Trail Dusters
Tahoe Donner 4 Wheelers

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Simple Man is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2016, 10:49 AM   #2 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 9,331
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
Doug,

I think RTF is not per-se, managing the projects on the trail any longer. Like I showed in the Soup thread - Parks and Recreation Commission are the Authority now, not RTF, Not FOTR. Those days went the way of the Do-Do after the CAO was lifted and AAT groups were formed.

I suspct nd maybe it will be confirmed, that the meetings to attend now are the Park and Rec meetings, which appear to be cancelled as often as the ROC meetings.

Minutes are no longer posted (for a loooooong time now), and agendas are no longer posted.

Honestly - we can only blame ourselves. My pop used to say - "Nobody respects what's not inspected", and since the change, the passion and communication has been depleted by frustration as mentioned in another thread.

It's definitely not apathy, it's more the fact that we now deal with a government entity (Vickie Sanders) who doesn't give a crap about anyone else's thoughts.

Democracy on the trail is gone. We have a dictator now.

IMHO the only way to get in front of it is by starting a new group that attends meetings, has paid members, and can ADVOCATE for the users.
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Old 09-27-2016, 11:20 AM   #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Member # 227055
Location: POLLOCK PINES
Posts: 598
Democracy on the trail is gone. We have a dictator now.

IMHO the only way to get in front of it is by starting a new group that attends meetings, has paid members, and can ADVOCATE for the users.

TRUE THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
__________________
KK6QDH....CLEAR
phunhawg98 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-27-2016, 12:54 PM   #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Member # 695409
Location: Placerville, Ca
Posts: 16
Side note:
Bebe what's AAT? I can't keep up with acronyms.
__________________
Fawking Canadiens. Ruin everything
Baggerman0351 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2016, 01:11 PM   #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Simple Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Member # 12635
Location: Sparks, NV
Posts: 813
I get that RTF isn't driving the issues anymore, nor any users group but RTF does have Vickie's ear. Are they saying what we want them to say? We need more transparency from RTF as well El Dorado County.

I'm asking RTF to step up and keep the users informed. If they can't maybe Cal4 or CORVA or Blue Ribbon (paid people) can put pressure on the agencies to be more transparent.

I'm not against a new group but that's going to take reinventing the wheel. Why not pressure the pro-OHV groups out there to do what we'd like them to do?

RTF has been emailed and asked to join in on this conversation. If they don't I guess we need to ask, find or start another group.



FYI:
AAT = Adopt-A-Trail
__________________
Doug Barr
Lake Tahoe Hi-Lo's
Hills Angels 4wd Club
North Tahoe Trail Dusters
Tahoe Donner 4 Wheelers

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Simple Man; 09-27-2016 at 01:12 PM.
Simple Man is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2016, 01:44 PM   #6 (permalink)
Rock God
 
renolaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Member # 12908
Location: Poundtown, NV
Posts: 1,325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggerman0351 View Post
Side note:
Bebe what's AAT? I can't keep up with acronyms.
Adopt
A
Trail
__________________
'81 CJ8
'01 2500 HD 8.1/Ali

Life Member BRC
Cal 4 Wheel.
ECV #3691

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
renolaw is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2016, 02:19 PM   #7 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 9,331
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
Problem is RTF is no longer user/community focused - they are owner/property focused. They achieved their goal of becoming property owners, defeated the evil water board, so they don't need us anymore.

This used to be the place where all things Rubicon were hashed out. Why? because this was literally the site that was and IS all things Rubicon. Pirate 4x4 wouldn't have been born without the Pirates of the Rubicon.

RTF left PBB because the heat was getting to be too much, and they were sick of the "opinions". They wanted everyone to agree with them and the County's way.

FOTR and the AAT's do what they are told. That's fine, but an advocacy group would keep tabs on the County and participate in the formal sense.

Of course BRC does this, but this needs to be done in the micro climate that is the Rubicon. It needs to be a hyper focused group, with regular membership meetings, agendas and goals for the trail.

It needs to be accessible, touchable and open to all. No secret crap.
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2016, 03:03 PM   #8 (permalink)
Rock God
 
Fueler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Member # 13071
Location: Oakley, CA
Posts: 1,385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bebe View Post

It needs to be accessible, touchable and open to all. No secret crap.
That is the complete opposite of modern day politics. There are too many people with their own personal agendas. Its sad that all we (the users) want is a ~12 mile stretch of dirt "road" in the middle of the forest to be left alone, yet they just cant.
__________________
As long as there is still Beefaroni and Budweiser everything will be just fine.
Fueler is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2016, 03:16 PM   #9 (permalink)
Granite Guru
 
Wh1t3NuKle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Member # 200856
Location: NorCal
Posts: 671
What entities, agencies, people would County Parks/Rec solicit for input (el dorado and Placer)?
This would be solicited and unsolicited alike.

I don't think anyone believes P&R is acting on its own.

Btw, where does one find the mandates, requirements, criteria, etc., For maintenance? Accessible to the public?
__________________
foolsize quadcabbed 40z wontons and arbd
Wh1t3NuKle is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2016, 03:50 PM   #10 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 9,331
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wh1t3NuKle View Post
What entities, agencies, people would County Parks/Rec solicit for input (el dorado and Placer)?
This would be solicited and unsolicited alike.

In the past I worked with these groups directly:
FOTR/RTF via Pirate, google groups, of volunteers and leads, CVWQCB, ENF, TNF, LTBMU, Eldo County, Placer County, Sheriffs from both counties if necessary and FS LEO

I don't think anyone believes P&R is acting on its own. No, but it is my assertion that John and Vickie are pretty much all that is left in the Power Seats

Btw, where does one find the mandates, requirements, criteria, etc., For maintenance? Accessible to the public?
Yes - all available online:

https://www.edcgov.us/Government/Rub...onitoring.aspx

Exhibit C
https://www.edcgov.us/Government/Rub...Exhibit_C.aspx

This may or may not work but here is a link to the meeting minutes for Parks and Rec:
https://eldorado.legistar.com/Depart...C-C4C4C4F99B0D
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL

Last edited by Bebe; 09-27-2016 at 04:15 PM.
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2016, 04:43 PM   #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
rockbuggy84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Member # 45202
Location: In a field
Posts: 1,957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bebe View Post
Democracy on the trail is gone. We have a dictator now.

IMHO the only way to get in front of it is by starting a new group that attends meetings, has paid members, and can ADVOCATE for the users.
How do we get the ball rolling?

It's time to also get a lawyer involved and to look further into the private deals going on behind closed doors.
rockbuggy84 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2016, 05:16 PM   #12 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 9,331
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockbuggy84 View Post
How do we get the ball rolling?

It's time to also get a lawyer involved and to look further into the private deals going on behind closed doors.
Not sure about a lawyer, but once we get a good amount of interest, we can look into the previous processes and make sure they change for the better.
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2016, 08:16 PM   #13 (permalink)
Rock God
 
Curly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Member # 20205
Location: California
Posts: 1,437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bebe View Post
the AAT's do what they are told.
Not entirely true. I know of at least two "adopt a trail" groups that dropped out
__________________
KI6PPU
It's very black and white. It becomes Gray when you give quarter....
Curly is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2016, 10:49 PM   #14 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 9,331
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly View Post
Not entirely true. I know of at least two "adopt a trail" groups that dropped out
Edit: I understand.
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL

Last edited by Bebe; 09-28-2016 at 11:10 AM.
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2016, 06:47 AM   #15 (permalink)
#4475 - ABD 4x4
 
edabd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Member # 89109
Location: Lincoln, CA
Posts: 1,172
Seems to be more and more threads like this popping up. I can't help but wonder if maybe I'm just too optimistic...
__________________
Edwin Abd, #4475

Placer County Crawlers - President 2011-2017

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Rubicon Trail Foundation
Friends of Fordyce

Last edited by edabd; 09-28-2016 at 06:51 AM.
edabd is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2016, 09:14 AM   #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Member # 110750
Location: Cameron Park Ca.
Posts: 172
Let's just say for shits and giggles, there is a group of trail users that band together and attend the meetings and monitor what is happening, do you really think they can sway the ears of the county or property owners?

The reason Winter camp will never be fixed because its the Trojan horse
Of the Rubicon.
TWISTER78FSB is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2016, 09:29 AM   #17 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 9,331
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWISTER78FSB View Post
Let's just say for shits and giggles, there is a group of trail users that band together and attend the meetings and monitor what is happening, do you really think they can sway the ears of the county or property owners?

The reason Winter camp will never be fixed because its the Trojan horse
Of the Rubicon.
I do.
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2016, 11:01 AM   #18 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Member # 695409
Location: Placerville, Ca
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly View Post
Not entirely true. I know of at least two "adopt a trail" groups that dropped out
That's what I was getting at
__________________
Fawking Canadiens. Ruin everything
Baggerman0351 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2016, 11:09 AM   #19 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 9,331
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
Gotcha, so if they don't agree with the project or the process they can leave the program.

Have these two groups been replaced?
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2016, 01:10 PM   #20 (permalink)
#4475 - ABD 4x4
 
edabd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Member # 89109
Location: Lincoln, CA
Posts: 1,172
Why is soup bowl priority over fixing winter camp? Seems like tje focus is being diverted for some reason and I'm not understanding why?
__________________
Edwin Abd, #4475

Placer County Crawlers - President 2011-2017

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Rubicon Trail Foundation
Friends of Fordyce
edabd is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2016, 01:17 PM   #21 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Member # 110750
Location: Cameron Park Ca.
Posts: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by edabd View Post
Why is soup bowl priority over fixing winter camp? Seems like tje focus is being diverted for some reason and I'm not understanding why?
They need atleast one problem child, Winter camp is the perfect storm.
TWISTER78FSB is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2016, 01:36 PM   #22 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 9,331
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by edabd View Post
Why is soup bowl priority over fixing winter camp? Seems like tje focus is being diverted for some reason and I'm not understanding why?
The rock that was meant for Winter Camp ended up at Little Sluice. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/rubic...-2016-why.html

My assumption is there is no additional budget for rock/helos, but Shannon can manage a quick little project with the new off road cement mixer.
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL

Last edited by Bebe; 09-28-2016 at 01:39 PM.
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2016, 03:30 PM   #23 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Member # 160801
Posts: 246
I completely understand, no matter how much it sickens me, that once the government took over full control, things were going to be mismanaged and rife with corrupt politics. Government control sucks and will be conducted by lazy, inept, ass-kissers who's only goal is to one day have their own asses kissed. We have been conditioned as Americans to accept this over the last few decades.

What I CAN NOT accept, is that my fellow off-roaders will grab shovels and WILLINGLY do the bidding of these misguided fools! Are they just blindly following orders because they have been convinced that they are doing good??? Or, are they deliberately and willfully acting against the greater off-road community?

I have been struggling with this mentality among off-roaders in recent years; a Cal4W club HELPED the Sierra Club close trails in the Ventura County mountains a few years ago - and took photos with them!!!! I sat by and watched a major 4x4 advocacy group support the Desert Protection Act!!! Now FOTR are just a puppet ORG for some government bitch who doesn't care about the trail???

Helping or compromising with the enemies of our right to wheel will ALWAYS end badly for us. Whether they understand or not, the folks that are going out there to do the Government's bidding against us are sheepishly accelerating the demise of our hobby at best, and acting as traitors at worst.
desert dogg is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2016, 04:07 PM   #24 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 9,331
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by desert dogg View Post
I completely understand, no matter how much it sickens me, that once the government took over full control, things were going to be mismanaged and rife with corrupt politics. Government control sucks and will be conducted by lazy, inept, ass-kissers who's only goal is to one day have their own asses kissed. We have been conditioned as Americans to accept this over the last few decades.

What I CAN NOT accept, is that my fellow off-roaders will grab shovels and WILLINGLY do the bidding of these misguided fools! Are they just blindly following orders because they have been convinced that they are doing good??? Or, are they deliberately and willfully acting against the greater off-road community?

I have been struggling with this mentality among off-roaders in recent years; a Cal4W club HELPED the Sierra Club close trails in the Ventura County mountains a few years ago - and took photos with them!!!! I sat by and watched a major 4x4 advocacy group support the Desert Protection Act!!! Now FOTR are just a puppet ORG for some government bitch who doesn't care about the trail???

Helping or compromising with the enemies of our right to wheel will ALWAYS end badly for us. Whether they understand or not, the folks that are going out there to do the Government's bidding against us are sheepishly accelerating the demise of our hobby at best, and acting as traitors at worst.
How do we fix it?

The thread is titled - Who Decides?

We have an idea, but that fact that we don't know the chain of decision makers is the issue. We know where the buck stops, but where does it start? What is the process?

Would a group of user advocates, not beholden to the County, not beholden to the profiteers, not beholden to the NIMBY's, be a viable alternative?

Something similar to a GAO? Keep in mind we are talking about on the ground works advocacy, making sure the money goes where it should etc.
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL

Last edited by Bebe; 09-28-2016 at 04:15 PM.
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2016, 04:17 PM   #25 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 9,331
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
Should we do a poll?
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

** A VERIFICATION EMAIL IS SENT TO THIS ADDRESS TO COMPLETE REGISTRATION!! **

Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.