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Old 10-03-2005, 10:13 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Unhappy Quads on the Con=BAD

I hate to say it, but alot of the new damage I saw this weekend on the trail appears to be from quads on the trail. I am pro ATV all the way (I own four of them), but it really makes me mad when I see guys using bypasses that are only accessable to quads and ripping up them at wide open.

The worst bad spot I saw was at the bottom of Cadillac where it makes the switchback to the right coming from the Springs. There is a steep bypass that is down to the silty dirt. We had an TAV pass us before this spot then rip up the bypass in front of us. We looked around for a good way to block it off, but we had limited tools to work with. Maybe some FS signs to put at each end would help a little bit?

Also had a group near our camp (the dirty dozen spot at the Springs). On Sat night, it appeared that the adults in the group left and there were only two kids and maybe a young adult around. After the 3 trips INTO the river to fetch water with the ATV's, the young kid comes down to the river and proceeds to ride back and forth through it four times until his engine loads up and almost quits. Mind you he has no helmet on at this point. When he does get it running again, he runs up towards their camp and spins a few donuts before giving it up for the night. We did take some pics of tow rigs at Homewood, but we can't be sure of who they actually belonged to.

We all need to work together, but these guys seem to be on their own agenda. Even the rental guys seem to have no regard for anyone but their group. They cut our group in half while they were heading away from the river at the Springs. There were only three rigs in our group and they just couldn't wait to get in between us! I just don't get what the big rush is?

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Old 10-03-2005, 10:28 AM   #2 (permalink)
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i would have gone up there and had a nice talk with them. they atleast need to know, if there parents wont teach them who will?
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Old 10-03-2005, 11:03 AM   #3 (permalink)
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yup, i have 5 green stickers in my garage too and i still frimly believe turning the County Unmaintained Road into an OHV park will be it's down fall.
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Old 10-03-2005, 12:38 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by FLASHLIGHTMAN
yup, i have 5 green stickers in my garage too and i still frimly believe turning the County Unmaintained Road into an OHV park will be it's down fall.
I could'nt agree more. Most of the ATV's just fly though the Con. I belive most of the Bypass's are created by ATV's...............

There are more ATV's on the Con than ever before.
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Old 10-03-2005, 07:47 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I'll play counterpoint on this...

It's all about Information to users....Not the vehicle. We had this same discussion, regarding extreme 4x4 on the trail. Banning a vehicle is pointless.

Idiots buy ALL KINDS of vehicles. Idiots own Jeeps, Idiots own buggies, Idiots own ATV, Idiots own trucks...

I've been using the Rubicon since 1979. I bought my 1947 Willys when I was 21, so I had my own rig. I still own it. I've been using my ATV on the trail for nearly 3 years now. There's no part of the trail that requires me to use a bypass, except for the Little Sluice Box...and thanks to winches and dynamite...I'm not the only one who bypasses it.

I volunteer to trail Patrol on my quad...I've literally picked up nearly 100lbs of trash on the trail this year alone..from zip strips, shoes, gloves, shock plates, glass, cans...you name it.. How much have you?

I know that bypass...it's STUPID. After having riding on the Dusy trail a couple weeks ago...There are no bypasses....you just do the trail. The #1 Trail management that needs to be done...is Close off All these Bypasses.

Anyone going around something....Needs go somewhere else. I've only used the bypass at Winch Hill #1 on the Fordyce once just to see it. A friend of mine who had limited ATV experience, did the Fordyce with us. He went around the Tree on Winch Hill #2...We gave him a lecture afterward...he'll never do it again. Trust me.

Banning Green stickers....won't help. Manage the trail and inform the users.
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Old 10-04-2005, 07:44 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Got to go

There is a bad dynamic here. Any fool can (and they do) go to the con, no knowledge or concern for others or any understanding of the law or vehicle code. And rip, bypass, and ruin. There is no prerequisite to take the trail. It is a right and not a privelege. So, they come. Duh, I didn't know. Then you HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE THERE. Since personal responsibility doesn't hack it, it will have to be legislated. A simpler solution for all. Ban ATV. They obviously cant make all the sections. They HAVE to bypass.
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Old 10-04-2005, 07:45 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UGET IT
I could'nt agree more. Most of the ATV's just fly though the Con. I belive most of the Bypass's are created by ATV's...............

There are more ATV's on the Con than ever before.
More than ever before. Very true. Many new bypassess for quads. Many bypassess altogether. That is why we need the direction of the Rubicon Trail Master Plan to guide the FOTR in blocking bypassess and maintaining the trail. Also, many more lifeflights from the Rubicon. Most are ATV related. Saw a roll myself that was 18 inches from being near fatal.

Good, bad? Maybe, but more for sure.
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Old 10-04-2005, 08:39 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Anyone going around something....Needs go somewhere else. I've only used the bypass at Winch Hill #1 on the Fordyce once just to see it. A friend of mine who had limited ATV experience, did the Fordyce with us. He went around the Tree on Winch Hill #2...We gave him a lecture afterward...he'll never do it again. Trust me.


you lectured your buddy for using the bypass, thats is horrible of you If you lectured me i would have roosted one off on you. People need bypasses they are not as bad as you make them seem. i seriouly doubt you have never wheeled with a crippled vehicle, bypasses are a live saver some times. Some peoples skills and vehicle are not as advanced as other and that does not mean they don't belong on the trail. NOW i am not saying creat by passes but if thier is one there and its well traveled and not hurting the enviroment then thier is no reason you should not be able to use it.
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Old 10-04-2005, 09:16 AM   #9 (permalink)
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As for the whole picking up trash thing, I go to the Con 2-3 times a year. This last trip was the first one in three years that I have not been there for a cleanup, including the big poop patrol last year at Spider (along with my wife and 5 year old)! I don't recall seeing any ATV's at that cleanup.

Guys like ATVObsession are a rarity. Most every ATV I have ever seen on the trail was packing nothing but a cooler and a limited amount of gear. The rental guys surely didn't have any trash bags hanging off the back of their rides

I am not trying to ban anyone from having fun, but "times they are a changin" for all of us!
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Old 10-04-2005, 09:48 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I have been running the con for years ,with the tahoe side as my home I have seen alot of changes .Not to pick on one group but in my time I have seen multiple bypasses around stuff that does not need bypassed most of which were started by atvs or motorcycles.They think it is a cross country free for all just because they have the ability to go anywhere.It is not just the atvs or motorcycles,it is everyone with no respect for anything not even themselves .It is up to us to educate and inform ,but sometimes it is hard to get through to everyone. We all have to do our part including the people who are making money by destroying the rubicon with there rental toys.
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Old 10-04-2005, 10:08 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I think the biggest problem here is couch patatoe Joe sees a Jeep or some other SUV driving over anything they want on TV which includes small green bushes. They think thats a cool thing to do so they go buy thier vechile of choice. SUV, ATV, Buggy, whatever, they have no education on how to protect the trails, that is until some one informs them. Most people are going to be cool about it. but there is always that one idiot who does not care.
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Old 10-04-2005, 11:53 AM   #12 (permalink)
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We need to stay together- mountain bikers, ATV's, hunters, horsemen, jeeps, buggies, etc..

Divide and conquer, that would be my gameplan if I was Sierra Club.......
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Old 10-04-2005, 12:17 PM   #13 (permalink)
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education is key, the biggest problem now is, to many students and not enough teachers.
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Old 10-04-2005, 02:06 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JeepJerrySeinfeld
you lectured your buddy for using the bypass, thats is horrible of you If you lectured me i would have roosted one off on you. People need bypasses they are not as bad as you make them seem. i seriouly doubt you have never wheeled with a crippled vehicle, bypasses are a live saver some times. Some peoples skills and vehicle are not as advanced as other and that does not mean they don't belong on the trail. NOW i am not saying creat by passes but if thier is one there and its well traveled and not hurting the enviroment then thier is no reason you should not be able to use it.
In my opinion this is "The Big Problem" !!!!

Even having been here in this forum and having read the issues over the months and having seen the general consensus and direction we are headed, we have guys who still won't stay on the trail and are willing to try and justify it???? Dude here even says if he gets a talking to he is gonna roost in your face??????

I can't say I like all the changes I have made personally in the way I use the trail but if it in anyway helps to keep the trail open then it is worth it. Behavioral change for a pay off of an open free trail is a small price to pay, but no matter where you go anymore there is always some jerkoff that feels they are above the rules and the law.

Unfortunately we all have to pay for the behavior of those who just don't give a dern, or even worse, those that know the rules but willfully disobey them. I am sure in the end it will be those guys we can thank the most for the restrictions and closures to come.

As they say "You can lead a horse to water, but you sure can't make it pull it's head out of it's butt to drink."
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Old 10-04-2005, 02:46 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Ken said it right: "Manage the trail and inform the users."
It doesn't matter WHAT they drive. If they are making unapproved bypasses, they need informed and enforced. There are plenty of approved bypasses where needed... we don't need any more, and each additional unapproved bypass heightens the risk of losing access.

Make no mistake, the anti-access groups do "divide and conquer" -- and this just further underlines the need for self-policing and more help with the volunteer Rubicon Trail Patrol.

A responsible you're-one-of-us-all trail user approach is handy to be heard (nobody likes to be read a riot act, and we will catch more flies with honey than vinegar), but if I am on the trail volunteering my time, and somebody purposefully roosts me, they'd better make a speedy getaway.

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Old 10-04-2005, 03:04 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JeepJerrySeinfeld
People need bypasses they are not as bad as you make them seem. i seriouly doubt you have never wheeled with a crippled vehicle, bypasses are a live saver some times. Some peoples skills and vehicle are not as advanced as other and that does not mean they don't belong on the trail. NOW i am not saying creat by passes but if thier is one there and its well traveled and not hurting the enviroment then thier is no reason you should not be able to use it.
Aw, hell. Make yourself aware of the issues, man... using illegal bypasses is a huge problem along Rubicon.
/forum/rubicon-trail/383833-what-eldorado-n-f-acutally-doing.html
/forum/rubicon-trail/387411-eldorado-national-forest.html
Motor Vehicle Restrictions Map
* North Side of Map (PDF, 6.7mb): http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/map...5-07_north.pdf
* South Side of Map (PDF, 6.1mb): http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/map...5-07_south.pdf[/QUOTE]

Good for you that you're not creating bypasses, that's the absolute minimum floor which can be expected of a 'wheeler. Having met that lowest bar, PLEASE get yourself informed as to what is legal and what is not, and try to recreate accordingly so you don't wreck it for us all!

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Old 10-04-2005, 05:59 PM   #17 (permalink)
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education is key, the biggest problem now is, to many students and not enough teachers.


AMEN!!! That is SO SO SO SO TRUE.


I didn't just read about the Rubicon or any other 4x4 trail in a book...buy a jeep and go...I had MENTORS.

People who helped me, People who taught me the right way...Mainly my grandfather.

Does anyone else feel like 4X4 Groups are less than in 70's and 80's?? More informal these days?

I think good groups, help promote safety and courtesy..especially to newbies.
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Old 10-04-2005, 06:13 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Ken said it right: "Manage the trail and inform the users."
It doesn't matter WHAT they drive. If they are making unapproved bypasses, they need informed and enforced. There are plenty of approved bypasses where needed... we don't need any more, and each additional unapproved bypass heightens the risk of losing access.

Make no mistake, the anti-access groups do "divide and conquer" -- and this just further underlines the need for self-policing and more help with the volunteer Rubicon Trail Patrol.

A responsible you're-one-of-us-all trail user approach is handy to be heard (nobody likes to be read a riot act, and we will catch more flies with honey than vinegar), but if I am on the trail volunteering my time, and somebody purposefully roosts me, they'd better make a speedy getaway.

Randii

Yup. I did 4 dedicated Trail Patrol days this year. VERY successful, IMO. Every person I met was respectful and glad we were there. The ATV is very useful in collecting trash...mainly the closeness and ease of getting off and on. I met the Sheriff's on one trip and they were on Quad's.

Nuts and Bolts...The Bypasses NEED to be blocked. The mud holes need to be filled/or bridged (like the Dusy) and the trail can once again turn to singular trail.

I think a perfect example...is Below Cadillac. There's a Large Rock outcropping...it's a toughy. But now...It's SO WIDE and there's an easy dirt path around it.

And as for the comment about ATV's needing to use Bypasses. The ONLY place on the entire trail my group bypasses...is the Little Sluice...and certainly I'm not alone. We've even done the Old Sluice box above the slab...no bypasses there.

The trail is the trail....and either you can do it...or you can't. If you can't....Do what I did as a kid...I garaged my Jeep and put lockers in it so I could.

Modify the rig, not the trail.



Last comment....ATV's flying on the trail. Yes...we can go faster. But just like ANY rig catching another group. You pass when there is an opportunity to pass (Ie: the rig pulls over). When I'm in my jeep...I pull over for bikes and quads. When I'm in my quad...I wait. I don't get pissed that I'm suddenly "slowed" down...it is what it is. Ask the guys I met on Patrol last month...I had 10 Jeeps in front..from below Walker to Soup Can or whatever. No rush...It's the Rubicon.

I AM fully aware...I'm in the Minority, as far as the ATV community goes. However....The More Posts that are written, the more people that see stuff like this....hopefully, it will help convert them.
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Old 10-05-2005, 02:53 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I think this entire thread further demonstrates the natural evolution of use patterns on the trail. I am a firm believer that you can't stop this process and time shows this to be correct. We've gone from Studebakers to Willy's to CJ's to modified to buggies to quads. I view none of this as bad. In fact I don't see pointing the finger at a certain group of users as productive at all. People pointing the finger just fail to address the real issues, they devide rather than unite the users groups and frankly they are selfishly driven...meaning they want to protect just their vision of what the trail should be.

Lack of management, maintenance, education, enforcement and development...This is where the trail has been failed. Where's the County? Where's the FS? Well they are in a holding pattern. The FS has clamped down as far as they can on access but do seem to be flexible on some issues. The County is waiting for the RTMP. Frankly I've just about lost hope that it will ever get done. The soonest the RTMP will come into affect (Post NEPA) is spring 2008. We probably won't see money allocated for projects, staff, etc for years after that. Hopefully this will happen and benefit all users, include all users and we can continue to enjoy the trail.

In the meantime, I'd like to see the county make an effort to mitigate some of the current problems so when the day comes for the RTMP to be implemented the trail is relatively close to what it is now and not drastically worse.
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Old 10-05-2005, 09:38 PM   #20 (permalink)
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"meaning they want to protect just their vision of what the trail should be. "

That is how the Sierra Club thinks. Lets remember what multiple use is all about and that we need to stay united. At the same time we need to behave and all we can do to those who won't is keep trying to get it through to them.
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Old 10-06-2005, 12:57 PM   #21 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=NOTPRETTY]I think this entire thread further demonstrates the natural evolution of use patterns on the trail. I am a firm believer that you can't stop this process and time shows this to be correct. We've gone from Studebakers to Willy's to CJ's to modified to buggies to quads.

QUOTE]

yes the use patters have drastically changed, especially in the last 2 or 3 years. You are correct, If allowed to continue to evolve the "Road" will become an OHV park. Question is is a "multi use" ohv park what we all really want up there??

Evolution can be stoped, it's been stopped at several other OHV areas already, history shows us that in most cases we the users are not smart enought to stop evolution ourselves, but lawsuits can and will when enough damage is done.

people say "multi use" .... personally i don't think the limited resources of the Rubicon Trail, the exact resources that make it the most famous 4x4 road in the world, will be able to handle a "multi use OHV park", and i'm willing to bet most Resource Managers would agree with me.
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Old 10-11-2005, 03:22 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atvobsession
I'll play counterpoint on this...

It's all about Information to users....Not the vehicle. We had this same discussion, regarding extreme 4x4 on the trail. Banning a vehicle is pointless.

Idiots buy ALL KINDS of vehicles. Idiots own Jeeps, Idiots own buggies, Idiots own ATV, Idiots own trucks...
Best thing I've read all day...
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Old 10-11-2005, 04:05 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I ran the trail for the first time in late August on ATV's with my brother and 64 year old dad. None of us had been on it before. We took it slow and actually had two groups in jeeps pass us. I ride atv's at work on private land and am probably more aware of riding with a style that minimizes the impact to the environment than most people. It seems to me that you would have to be brain dead to not notice how you are tearing the place up by using some of the bypasses on the trail. Therefore, it must not be a lack of education that is the problem. My feeling is that people who are caught doing stupid stuff should just forfeit there right to use our lands. Kinda' like losing your drivers license. If they can't respect it, then they shouldn't be allowed to use it. I truly believe it is a very small minority screwing it up for the majority. I do NOT believe the problem is a lack of education, it IS a problem of lack of respect.
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Old 10-11-2005, 04:49 PM   #24 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=FLASHLIGHTMAN][QUOTE=NOTPRETTY]I think this entire thread further demonstrates the natural evolution of use patterns on the trail. I am a firm believer that you can't stop this process and time shows this to be correct. We've gone from Studebakers to Willy's to CJ's to modified to buggies to quads.

QUOTE]

yes the use patters have drastically changed, especially in the last 2 or 3 years. You are correct, If allowed to continue to evolve the "Road" will become an OHV park...... QUOTE]

Flashlightman...I think we are not that far apart.

What is the difference between the Rubicon Trail right now and an OHV park. Anything that can go to Prarie City can go to the Rubicon or at least try. There's no one there to stop them, thats for sure. So I guess what I am saying is it already is an OHV park. It is just not managed. The difference is an OHV park has: employees, enforcement, trash bins, bathroom, procedures for medical rescue, people responsible for monitor conditions, making repairs, developing facilities, parkings, entrance fees, restriction in certain areas, signs not to mention millions in budget money. The Rubicon has virtually none of that. Frankly it is amazing the trail looks as good as it does.

Now is that what we want on the Rubicon. I think I would agree with you and say most would not want that it to become a full blown Prarie City. Everyone who's recently been to the Rubicon can see the impact on the trail has increased in the past 5 years. So where do we stand? Are we infavor of managing the impacts or are we hoping a series of tightening policies will make people just go away and the impacts will return to 1990 levels.

I land in the middle. I think we can implement many things on the trail to manage the affects of users like trash bins, toilets, signs, repairs, an annual fee and enforcement . I think this can be done and maintain the trail's historic past and serenity. This would allow maximum access and use that could be maintained. It will take money and an cooperative effort by the county and FS to happen.

Unfortunately, what I see happening for the forseeable future is no management, continued impacts and a knee-jerk reaction of closures and/or massive restrictions. Failure by most everyone's standard.
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Old 10-11-2005, 06:12 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Bingo.
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Raceline Wheels and Falken Tires!! Thanks guys for sponsoring the Tacos at this Years Event!!
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