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Old 11-22-2005, 11:44 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Del, Did you know that they were gonna do this to the Gate Keeper?
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Old 11-22-2005, 11:58 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Tractor
Del, Did you know that they were gonna do this to the Gate Keeper?
like said earlier...i feel that he DID know, and im willing to bet that he is well aware of a date for the box being blasted
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Old 11-23-2005, 12:43 AM   #53 (permalink)
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You guys need to chill out.

Del, did not know of the date for the Gatekeeper. He did not attend that ROC meeting. The County asked us to keep the date quiet for safety reasons. They didn't want a couple of dozen spectators.

The discussion regarding Gatekeeper had been ongoing for some time but the decision to use explosives came up suddenly and approved very quickly.

To my knowledge there is no set date for a similar action for the Little Sluice. But it will happen.

I've tried to have a discussion on this board about what level the trail should be maintained. I got arguments but no constructive conversation.





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Old 11-23-2005, 01:29 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Man
You guys need to chill out.

Del, did not know of the date for the Gatekeeper. He did not attend that ROC meeting. The County asked us to keep the date quiet for safety reasons. They didn't want a couple of dozen spectators.

The discussion regarding Gatekeeper had been ongoing for some time but the decision to use explosives came up suddenly and approved very quickly.

To my knowledge there is no set date for a similar action for the Little Sluice. But it will happen.

I've tried to have a discussion on this board about what level the trail should be maintained. I got arguments but no constructive conversation.





.
Well thanks for keeping us informed
I can not support anybody that is not 100% on my side.

Lets keep secrets from us.
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Old 11-23-2005, 02:01 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Why was the Gatekeeper blown up BEFORE the Lil Sluice if the Lil Sluice is the bigger problem? Why keep giving and trying if all we do is lose ground? What have we gained? Spider is still closed. The Gatekeeper has now been destroyed. The Box is soon to be destroyed. What has been reopened? What have we gained? Oh wait, we can now be 50' from Spider, instead of not by it at all, let the bells ring and chock up a win for the good guys.
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Old 11-23-2005, 02:25 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Just came up with one more question.

We have been talking about how there is an erosion problem at the Gatekeeper, hence why it needs all of this attention. Was all of this blowing up of the Gatekeeper to help with the erosion. Or was it to make it less hard. To me that is a major question that needs to be answered.
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Old 11-23-2005, 04:40 AM   #57 (permalink)
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I'll be up there this Friday and will shoot some pics for y'all as well as removing the jeep top if its still in the spillway.

Thanks to the rest of you for your efforts and positive comments.
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Old 11-23-2005, 05:23 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Just came up with one more question.

We have been talking about how there is an erosion problem at the Gatekeeper, hence why it needs all of this attention. Was all of this blowing up of the Gatekeeper to help with the erosion. Or was it to make it less hard. To me that is a major question that needs to be answered.
My understanding it was due to the spring located above the gatekeeper. There has been talk in other threads about bringing in rocks to build up the roadbase in the gatekeeper area to allow runoff down the hill fromt he spring.

I've got my own rants but thats not going to be constructive in the least so I'll let them go.
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Old 11-23-2005, 06:30 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
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The discussion regarding Gatekeeper had been ongoing for some time but the decision to use explosives came up suddenly and approved very quickly.
I find it very hard to believe the decision to use explosives was approved quickly considering the planning and approval needed to deploy them. Sounds like there were off the record discussions and planning, then it was presented for quick approval.
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Old 11-23-2005, 07:08 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Man

Del, did not know of the date for the Gatekeeper. He did not attend that ROC meeting. The County asked us to keep the date quiet for safety reasons. They didn't want a couple of dozen spectators.
.


.
Spectators or Protesters?
Why all the secrets?
Over Christmas break am I going to log back on here to see the Sluice Box was blown up?
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Old 11-23-2005, 08:07 AM   #61 (permalink)
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I just can not understand the reasoning behind not making the information public. The Excuse of "The County asked us to keep the date quiet for safety reasons. They didn't want a couple of dozen spectators." Is utter BS. Why not post something on the FOTR list saying they board approved blasting of the gatekeeper and not post a date? Part of the very heart of FOTR is communication, Unison and a common bond we all share.

To me not communicating out that they were going to blast the gatekeeper is a big eye opener. So what if the county wanted you to keep it quite that they were going to put up gates and to install these gates they had to blast holes to set the pipes, Would you keep that quite too for sake of safety reasons?
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Old 11-23-2005, 08:58 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Well maybe this will be the kick in the butt we all needed to get more involved.

As far as lambasting Del or anyone for not personally calling you.....GET OFF IT!! What is done is done....pointing fingers, hearsay and acting juvenile isn't going to further anything. Learning from our defeats on the other hand can possibly give us the opportunity to have a stronger hand in stopping future excavation of the "Trail".

IMO we only have ourselves to blame for this and not knowing, if we all were more involved and not depending on a handful of people to do our bidding this might not be true. I firmly believe the only way we are going to be able to prevent this from becoming commonplace is for all of us to sacrifice a little more. It is time for us to stand up and do something instead of coming into this forum and trying to pin our collective problem on one individual. Having under 10 people trying to fight the Federal Government, the State and the Counties as well as a ton of greenies is pretty short sided on our part wouldn't you say?

I know I am going to catch it for this but from a technical standpoint: Gatekeeper is not even part of the Trail! It is one end of the Ellis Creek OHV Trail. Easy access for the trailer folks, a convenience at best, and because it crosses private property it is also a PRIVILAGE. Not the "God given right" you guys make it out to be.

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Old 11-23-2005, 09:06 AM   #63 (permalink)
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There were several reasons why the Gatekeeper was blasted.

Traffic - The wait was becoming frustrating for everyone. Traffic was backing up on a regular basis. The delays from the slow going at Gatekeeper were causing road rage.

People were creating bypasses and driving through private property. By eliminating a few rocks, traffic should flow more freely. This is not something that will be applied to the entire trail. Gatekeeper is at the begining of the trail and sees unusually long delays on the weekends. Farther in along the trail, traffic naturally spreads out and the delays are less frequent.

The Gatekeeper had also become a spectator spot. Guys were trying to show off for the crowd. The bushes were getting trashed and the litter was increasing.

Erosion - There is a natural spring at Gatekeeper. We can't direct the water away. The large rocks were an obsticle that promoted the spining of tires in the wet or loose dirt. This erosion was unacceptable. Concrete was applied (twice) but unsuccessful.

The NEW line - The new line at Gatekeeper became wide right. This was because it was becoming harder and harder to take the obsticle straight on. By driving father right then turning hard left, you got a straighter shot over/between the two big boulders. The problem was the erosion of the hillside. You could measure this erosion in feet not inches.



Something needed to be done. The county did not want a temporary fix. There was some lively discussion on the topic. Ultimately, it was the county's decision. I'm not saying other things could have or should have been tried, but this will solve the above mentioned problems.

The gatekeeper (small "g") aspect will still apply. Drivers will see the obsticles still there. The Alligator Pit will deter those not up to the challenges of the trail.


I'm bothered that anyone on this board would think that I would allow a gate to be put up on the Rubicon. That is the reason FOTR was formed. This affected me more because I'm on the Tahoe side but don't think for a moment that I would allow it on the west side of the trail.

We will never have 100% agreement on how to manage the trail. If you feel that you are not being represented properly, please attend the meetings in person. I would love to see a representative from every club in the state show up for each and every ROC meeting.

The FOTR meeting is February 25 at the Cal4wheel office in Sac. Please show up and voice your concerns and ideas for the future.





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Old 11-23-2005, 09:27 AM   #64 (permalink)
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The relationship between the county is very important. If that relationship turns sour, the county will continue to manage the trail, just without input from any usergroup. It is a county road. If the county wants to pave it, they can.

That puts our reps in a tough position, and looking at the "big picture", I support their descision & trust their judgement on this.

Del- Check is in the mail.
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Old 11-23-2005, 09:28 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Quote:
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As far as lambasting Del or anyone for not personally calling you.....GET OFF IT!! What is done is done....pointing fingers, hearsay and acting juvenile isn't going to further anything.

I could care less about not being personally called. This was intentionally HIDDEN from us, which is a completely different matter entirely. It's certainly soured my trust of various organizations, that may or may not be something they win back.
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Old 11-23-2005, 09:37 AM   #66 (permalink)
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This was intentionally HIDDEN from us, which is a completely different matter entirely.
According to your theory, Do you have any evidence to back up your accusation? This is hearsay not facts unless you have some sort of proof?? Do you?? If not then shut up, mob mentality isn't gonna fix anything here. You starting some rumor is totally stupid and has no purpose but to gratify you and your anger.

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Old 11-23-2005, 09:40 AM   #67 (permalink)
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I've tried to write a reply to this thread several times since last night but none of them would do anything to help us move on from this point. It's saddens me to see my brothers and friends throw stones at each other. We're all so passionate when it come to the trail and will fight tooth and nail to keep it open but many of us don't actually know who we're actually fighting against so we get this "friendly fire" situation.

To my Dysfunctional brothers- your passion and support for one another never ceases to amaize me! You guys could move mountains with a shovel! Never let that fire fade!

Del- I'll admit that I have let my BRC membership expire. Like so many others, I've spent hundreds of my own hard earned dollers over the past couple of years in the fight. Another $20.00 is certainly not going to break me. You can count on me to re-up my membership to help support your continued efforts.

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Old 11-23-2005, 09:45 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Man
Something needed to be done. The county did not want a temporary fix. There was some lively discussion on the topic. Ultimately, it was the county's decision. I'm not saying other things could have or should have been tried, but this will solve the above mentioned problems.


Yes the county rules all, We are painfully aware of that. If I was to take this out of context I would say that IF the county wants it done they are going to do it. But I wont take it out of context.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Man
The gatekeeper (small "g") aspect will still apply. Drivers will see the obsticles still there. The Alligator Pit will deter those not up to the challenges of the trail.



SO essentially what your saying is they moved the erosion from one area of the trail to another.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Man
I'm bothered that anyone on this board would think that I would allow a gate to be put up on the Rubicon. That is the reason FOTR was formed. This affected me more because I'm on the Tahoe side but don't think for a moment that I would allow it on the west side of the trail.


I don't expect anyone would allow a gate to be posted, but if you go back and reread what I wrote, Would you communicate out that they were going to-do it if county asked you not to? For public safety? as the reason stated for not communicating about the gate keeper.
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Old 11-23-2005, 10:00 AM   #69 (permalink)
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i was going to send in a check for my membership. but why? so secrets can be kept from us, so a carpool lane can be formed to stop congestion, so all of our work is thrown down the drain(kind of like our trust in some of you)
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Old 11-23-2005, 10:07 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocknutz
According to your theory, Do you have any evidence to back up your accusation? This is hearsay not facts unless you have some sort of proof?? Do you?? If not then shut up, mob mentality isn't gonna fix anything here. You starting some rumor is totally stupid and has no purpose but to gratify you and your anger.

PJ
From Cruzila's original post responding to why the orignal post by Mark was deleted. I'm not spreading a rumor, I simply am concerned as to why. It's not exactly JUST myself that has come to this conclusion. Perhaps it's something that could have been learned for future dealings. Although given all the responces in this thread I highly doubt it.

Quote:
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I pulled a thread because I made a decision that it was not in the best interest of the users to comment on at the time. It had too much detail information and could have jepordized further our stand with respect to the trail
Tell ya what though, you want us to shut up, fine I'll shut up. Both my mouth and my support. I'm tired of being attacked for being concerned about these issues. Have a nice day. Randii, I doubt I'll be calling you about this whole affair, I'm washing my hands of it. Best of luck to you guys. Del's right about one thing in the other thread, the FOTR is now completely useless, it's a broken organization.
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Old 11-23-2005, 10:12 AM   #71 (permalink)
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The entire POR just joined the BRC last weekend. I think about 15 others joined as well...............

I have my own opinion about the Gatekeeper and this little project that heppened so fast. It was talked about in the past but thats all, no date was set or the talk of explosives, although I didnt attend this ROC meeting either.

I'll be going up to the Gatekeeper on Friday to see for myself what was actully done.

Keep your heads up everyone........................Dysfunctional Bros. you guys are awesome lets keep the traction we have.

Anyone is welcome to call me if there is anything I can do to keep the peace.

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Old 11-23-2005, 10:18 AM   #72 (permalink)
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FWIW, the date was not shared at the ROC meeting; I'm told it was only distributed by email a few days in advance of the blast. I don't know how the FS and County got the decision made so fast, with the general slow pace of government. I expected it to happen in '06.

The blasting at Gatekeeper was done primarily to prepare for an erosion repair. Certainly it will also make the trail a bit easier than it was in 2005, but when FOTR is done rebuilding the grade that has eroded away since the 2002? concrete, I expect it to still have difficulty. Each effort at Gatekeeper in the past has been much-ballyhooed in advance, and proven to be worthy of little comment when folks actually see it. I hope this will be the same.

The biggest eye-opener for me is that little by little, communication has ebbed within FOTR. We need to fix this -- there's got to be a balance between efficient leadership and total involvement by the rank and file in every decision. "Part of the very heart of FOTR is communication, unison and a common bond we all share." We need to fight to restore the parts of this that are lost.

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Old 11-23-2005, 10:18 AM   #73 (permalink)
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Hey Kevin, take some pics will ya? The ones I saw looked like possibly both the gatekeeper and the alligator pit, but hard to tell from above and about 400m away.
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Old 11-23-2005, 10:29 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Here are some certainties:

Little Sluice will be blasted.
There is no current date.
When a date is set it will not be released to the public.
Gatekeeper was a test bed for what blasting can or cannot accomplish.
This test bed is a direct result of involvement of a very few FOTR individuals.
We (I am included) feel it was done to represent the user group as a whole.
I realize that not everyone will be pleased.
I have heard from many that think the blasting was a good move.
I feel as strongly about THE TRAIL as most of you.
Maybe more because I am near poverty to be there.

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Old 11-23-2005, 10:32 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Hey Kevin, take some pics will ya? The ones I saw looked like possibly both the gatekeeper and the alligator pit, but hard to tell from above and about 400m away.

I havent even seen these Pics Mike? Where are they located? You bet I'll take pics..................
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