We can keep beating this issue, but at some point, we gotta move on.
Finishing and improving the Rubicon Trail Master Plan (RTMP) will formalize the process that we can use to engage the County effectively *AND* provide both the framework and accountability to make them respond to the public. That ain't sexy, nor is it perfect (though it is improving).
What is the challenge you want us users to work toward? Is it better signs, more education, improved Trail Patrol, a Tahoe Kiosk, or perhaps a specific work project on the trail? Be realistic!
As noted elsewhere, Little Sluice is slated for change -- the County is planning to blast, again, with the Forest Service's cooperation. If you select this as your cause celebre, just realize that the deck is already well-stacked against us. The wheels are well in motion, in spite of efforts by FOTR to redirect action away from blasting.
I suggest a different goal than LS, but I am willing to fight side-by-side with my FOTR brothers to try to do the right thing for the trail and its many users.
My goal? Spending more time four wheeling and enjoying the outdoors on less-traveled trails instead of wasting weekends doing things like picking up other people's turds around Spider Lake. That really went a long way towards getting back our motorized access to the lake. :shaking:
My goal? Spending more time four wheeling and enjoying the outdoors on less-traveled trails instead of wasting weekends doing things like picking up other people's turds around Spider Lake. That really went a long way towards getting back our motorized access to the lake. :shaking:
Stand next to your shoulder with your "FOTR (F&%k Over the Rubicon) Brothers" that didn't give us a heads up about the blasting of "Gate Keeper"?
Didn't ask people to show up in Protest of the Blasting?
Delete posts in the Rubicon Forum?
Stood by and watched the Forest Service takes pictures of a leveled section of the Rubicon?
Naw, I'll stick to my Drag Racing. At least they stand together even though there are "different" Classes of racers!!
Let's see if "Freedom of Speech" sticks around.
Edit notes from Moderator Del: Primergray, I don't know if Cruzila sent you a personal note about our rules of the road here on this forum, but this post is uncalled for, goes against our language rules, as well as our anti-personal slamming rules. If you want to take on FOTR with the language you used above, take it on with me on the side. We encourage kids to read this forum. Freedom of speech rules, yes, for sure; but not in the language you used. Del
What is the challenge you want us users to work toward? Is it better signs, more education, improved Trail Patrol, a Tahoe Kiosk, or perhaps a specific work project on the trail? Be realistic!
No simple answer here that's for sure. I have been on this trail 10 years or so...longer than some, and shorter than a lot more. I have seen some pretty crazy sh&t up there that has been mentioned on this board many times over and needs no repeat here. All I know is that I am damn surprised that the trail is open at all. Those of you who have spent a lot of time there know exactly what I mean
I am holding the thought that some people will just never get it. That's obviously why there are police cruising everywhere because there are people who will simply do things there own way. I feel that improved trail patrol is a good start. I am not saying that we need the Gestapo up there on every corner, but we need some help to govern the a$$ holes that we all know exist and cannot govern themselves.
I don't mind spending a weekend working my ass off if it's for a good cause. Doesn't matter if it's moving logs, picking up trash, collecting turds, whatever. I just get bent when I find out that it was a waste of time.
I don't mind spending a weekend working my ass off if it's for a good cause. Doesn't matter if it's moving logs, picking up trash, collecting turds, whatever. I just get bent when I find out that it was a waste of time.
Trying to be constructive here. I would like to see as little change on the trail as possible. I know this is not possible. What is the thing that has the trail most in danger of being closed/paved right now? In 2003 (prior to the closure of Spider) I would have said that getting rid of the parties at the box would have the greatest impact on the trail. Now that the closure is over but it is still in effect this seems to have fixed a good part of this problem.
What is the next highest risk to the trail? How can we attack that risk?
Trying to be constructive here. I would like to see as little change on the trail as possible. I know this is not possible. What is the thing that has the trail most in danger of being closed/paved right now? In 2003 (prior to the closure of Spider) I would have said that getting rid of the parties at the box would have the greatest impact on the trail. Now that the closure is over but it is still in effect this seems to have fixed a good part of this problem.
What is the next highest risk to the trail? How can we attack that risk?
Since the FS is taking the hard line on route designation. I see them doing the same to the trail as they did at Loon with the carsonite. That puts much of what we consider the Rubicon to be at risk. There are maps that show the trails leading off to camp areas along the trail.
Your task is to make a well written letter explaining the exact location of those routes and tell them you use them and they have a quality you can;t find anywhere else.
There are plenty of maps, threads, websites and such to be found on this forum and others. Fight to find them, fight to compose words, fight to write. That is the war we need to be in.
If we had a few very heavy hitting lawyers that would file lawsuits everytime something is brought to the table it would do a hell of a lot more than us just writing letters.
If we had a few very heavy hitting lawyers that would file lawsuits everytime something is brought to the table it would do a hell of a lot more than us just writing letters.
If we had a few very heavy hitting lawyers that would file lawsuits everytime something is brought to the table it would do a hell of a lot more than us just writing letters.
ATTORNEYS
I'm with Bear. Isn't this something FOTR should look into? Isn't this a big mistake what they did here. MARK MY WORDS ! GATE KEEPER WILL ERODE WORSE THAN EVER. How many trees and roots were screwed up by the blasting. I think only a law suit will stop the dumb asses at this point.
uhhg,
as must as I detest the idea of involving attourneys, I concur, more will get done faster with them involved.
Look at the sucess Environmental groups have had stopping logging in many areas. They file suit against the Forest Service and eveything stops immidiately until all the issues are resolved in court. This circumstance SHOULD bear the same results. Randii, FOTR, and whomever else are at the helm of the Rubicon ship need to be taking legal action NOW, to prevent further destruction of the beloved and infamous Rubicon trail.
The FS could simply say,"OK, Con and surrounding areas are closed untill the suit is settled." A good chance we'll be driving spaceships before a settlement comes down.
In regards to Randis' question on what the users should work toward.
I'd like the County, USFS and user groups to work together with a definitive set of agreed on plans on what they want to accomplish in the long and short term. Meetings at odd days of the week, access to conference calls that you recieve notification of AFTER the conference, hidden agendas? ect seem like the "working" together isn't taking place. How that is fixed I don't know.
On another note. We know the LS is going to get the Gatekeeper treatment. If that pending action brings more people from the 4wheeling community to arms then take it as a plus. Hopefully the influx of people will remain and help with the ongoing issues we face. This forum has recently seen an influx of new viewers hopefully that is an ongoing trend and not a Wenzel thing.
I've stated before that I'm a late comer to the political sceen. I know that a lot of trail maintenance on the Rubicon and other trails has taken place in recent years (blocking bypasses, erosian control, ect) but I'm curious how much of that work is proactive. The general concensus is the next bottleneck will move further along the trail (Walker Hill?) and with it will be similar problems as Gatekeeper. Should we be looking at ways to mitigate/prevent similar problems before they become hot spots?
WHY are we not represented by an attorney(s)?
If we had a few very heavy hitting lawyers that would file lawsuits everytime something is brought to the table it would do a hell of a lot more than us just writing letters.
The biggest problem is that proactive policy has to be planned stepping through a process, with due diligence and honest effort given to each step. When you get through the process, THEN you can appeal it in court. Also, keep in mind that we're currently in the midst of a planning phase mandated as the result of a lawsuit in which FOTR, Cal4, AMA and more participated as intervenors. It is somewhat a serial process.
Complicating this is that the anti-access folks are engaged less in proactive policy creation and more in REACTING and filing emergency lawsuits. The bugs and bunnies get their own emergency protection, since it is argued as a matter of life and death, but motorized access is a CHOICE for us and thus less life and death. Basically, the channels for legal action are more restricted on our side, and available mostly AFTER lengthy public process.
That's not even getting into the dollars that need to change hand for good legal counsel. FWIW, motorized recreation HAS bucks for lawyers (less than the anti-access forces, but still, at least some money) and FOTR is drawing these groups together to be prepared for legal action when the times comes. Last Sunday, we got together with reps from AMA, BRC, CA4WDC, CORVA, ORBA, and United and had good discussion about the ongoing Eldorado designation process. A lot of different folks from a lot of different access-oriented organizations are tracking this together, pushing for a good result, but tracking the opportunities for appeal along the way.
I respect that. Perhaps you can send that to BRC or Cal4 or any of the organizations listed above as a 'directed donation.' Send the check with a letter saying how you want the money spent. Better yet, pool money from like-minded folks in your association, club, or circle of friends, and send it in together, for more impact.
I'll put my money where my mouth is and match your Bennie, just let me know when you're sending it in. :cool2:
No fawkin organizations, I work hard for my money and I want it to actually DO something.(we asked BRC for help with Jergens and were told its not an important enough trail )
Question? What has RTF,BRC, or CAL4 done for the Con, El Dorado County?
I have spent time/money with all of them but all I get is asked to write more letters. (it gets old being asked to be creative and spend time writing letters on a constant basis when I see no progress)
Maybe if every move was posted (here on P4x4, not having to "look" for it) by these organizations more people would be willing to donate.:idea:
No fawkin organizations, I work hard for my money and I want it to actually DO something.(we asked BRC for help with Jergens and were told its not an important enough trail )
....
Maybe if every move was posted (here on P4x4, not having to "look" for it) by these organizations more people would be willing to donate.:idea:
I'm not much of one for getting in a bashing war as seems to be going on here, but in answer to the question of "Why Gatekeeper was blasted" I might have some insight. Toys on the Rocks went to Loon on Memorial day weekend for an outing. Gatekeeper was not a "Bottleneck", it was a place for folks to show off and repeatedly go back and forth through the same spot. Folks had actually plugged the drains to force water down to the rocky area for a better "Show". Lots of folks watching the antics. The end result? Rather than have a nice picnic we spent a good part of the afternoon picking up bags of trash, putting out unattended fires, digging out the new dams to allow for proper drainage of the trail etc etc etc. A few jerks had done enough damage to impact us all and then left most of their crap just lying where they had tossed it. As to what the Forest Service did to "my trail" (I've been going up there for 30+ years and still don't call it my trail), if more of us came down on those that are abusing the trail gate keeper might not have been blown. Which brings us to the trail itself. I have seen alot of changes over the years, some by mother nature, most by folks wanting to make a tougher line (Little Sluice didn't get like it is with out some "outside help"). These "modifications" lead to folks seeking alternate routes which do not conform to the original trail....alternate routes lead to intervention by the FS etc to ensure that the trail is routed back to its original area. You don't want Government Agencies messing with "your trail" then don't give them cause to do so. Stay on the original trail (maybe take some time to block off new side trails before they get established), when folks want to wich that rock down to make it tougher, intervine and explaine why it is not a good idea. Case in point is Soup Bowl, a premier obsticle. Next time you are there take a look at how far folks are pushing the limits, expanding things way to the left and even up the back wall on top. It is stuff like this that will get the trail shut down....the folks that are abusing "your trail" in this fashion are the ones you should be venting at.....as to how did this happen? We did it to ourselves by not protecting the areas around the trail, by applauding those who take some new and difficult line that never existed before....I am amazed at the amount of yahoos who scream and yell about the FS blowing up 4 rocks (yep, I went up there and counted) and how little flac I see about all the off trail abuse that is taking place up there and will ultimately be what gets things shut down if that ever happens. Rather than screaming about what is done folks might consider what they can do simply by going out and policing their own to protect the future of the rubicon. Even with the recent blasting, Gatekeeper is far tougher than it was about 15 years ago, so the condition of the trail is more a matter of perspective...enough of the soapbox, just my 50 cent worth...
If the FS wants to blow lots of premier obstacles as a way to control erosion I am all for it. I just want to be able to drive the trail, look at the views, stop and camp with out yahoos drinking, driving and being assine.
I would rather drive on a middle of the road FS trail, then hike on a really knarly old jeep trail!!
I'm not much of one for getting in a bashing war as seems to be going on here, but in answer to the question of "Why Gatekeeper was blasted" I might have some insight. Toys on the Rocks went to Loon on Memorial day weekend for an outing. Gatekeeper was not a "Bottleneck", it was a place for folks to show off and repeatedly go back and forth through the same spot. Folks had actually plugged the drains to force water down to the rocky area for a better "Show". Lots of folks watching the antics. The end result? Rather than have a nice picnic we spent a good part of the afternoon picking up bags of trash, putting out unattended fires, digging out the new dams to allow for proper drainage of the trail etc etc etc. A few jerks had done enough damage to impact us all and then left most of their crap just lying where they had tossed it. As to what the Forest Service did to "my trail" (I've been going up there for 30+ years and still don't call it my trail), if more of us came down on those that are abusing the trail gate keeper might not have been blown. Which brings us to the trail itself. I have seen alot of changes over the years, some by mother nature, most by folks wanting to make a tougher line (Little Sluice didn't get like it is with out some "outside help"). These "modifications" lead to folks seeking alternate routes which do not conform to the original trail....alternate routes lead to intervention by the FS etc to ensure that the trail is routed back to its original area. You don't want Government Agencies messing with "your trail" then don't give them cause to do so. Stay on the original trail (maybe take some time to block off new side trails before they get established), when folks want to wich that rock down to make it tougher, intervine and explaine why it is not a good idea. Case in point is Soup Bowl, a premier obsticle. Next time you are there take a look at how far folks are pushing the limits, expanding things way to the left and even up the back wall on top. It is stuff like this that will get the trail shut down....the folks that are abusing "your trail" in this fashion are the ones you should be venting at.....as to how did this happen? We did it to ourselves by not protecting the areas around the trail, by applauding those who take some new and difficult line that never existed before....I am amazed at the amount of yahoos who scream and yell about the FS blowing up 4 rocks (yep, I went up there and counted) and how little flac I see about all the off trail abuse that is taking place up there and will ultimately be what gets things shut down if that ever happens. Rather than screaming about what is done folks might consider what they can do simply by going out and policing their own to protect the future of the rubicon. Even with the recent blasting, Gatekeeper is far tougher than it was about 15 years ago, so the condition of the trail is more a matter of perspective...enough of the soapbox, just my 50 cent worth...
Thank you, I'll just steal your thoughts since they reflect mine as well...
I guess if everyone used the wentworth entrance, we would not be worried about the gate keeper. The Loon entrance has caused more head aches for everyone, bypasses, traffic jams, widening of the trails, soft soils errosion, and now fighting among friends:shaking:
Drastic measures such as this will continue, especially if continued trail damage is done by responsible groups and individuals.
Rich
PS.. I fully support FOTR, Del and our other leaders. Sometimes decisions need to be made without the troops having a say... remember this is a war, and the enemy is not going to give up, so fight your battles wisely
Exploited. In simple form, the Rubicon has become to popular for it's own good. Hearing people say, "I've been traveling it for 30 years" does not make you immortal, if you have ever invited friends to it, wrote to a paper rag about it, posted it on the web and what not, you added to the problem of popularity.
To me 'Tread Lightly' goes beyond being on the trail. It also has to do with, not exploiting your adventures. All it takes to get political heat is a crowd or a tree hugger to catch wind of it.
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