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for the people that are trying to set a "tire size" for the trail..

5K views 25 replies 11 participants last post by  Brandon 
#1 · (Edited)
I watched the superlift show last night where they take people that have never even been off road in STOCK jeeps and they laughed at the trail. True they are jeep rubicons so they have lockers etc but the video looked very recent (but before the bombing of the gatekeeper).

Anyone else catch it? Good history with Mark Smith etc, I am sure it was a re-run..
 
#2 ·
Just to clarify, all that most people are discussing is a Maintenance Standard... a way to assess the trail to see whether it is passable by a certain vehicle, with certain equipment and a proficient driver. This is *NOT* being discussed in terms of *vehicle requirements* (i.e. I'm not in favor of a "tire size" for the trail). How the heck could something like that be enforced, anyway?

Here's a scenario... a truck-sized rock falls into Cadillac Hill, mostly blocking it. The biggest buggies (with drivers with the biggest balls) can barely make it over the top, but other vehicles are prevented from traveling through without forging a huge bypass. FOTR calls the County DOT, who comes out, assesses the boulder and terrain, and verifies that a Maintenance Standard vehicle cannot pass, then works to return the trail to restore access. I don't care if they blast (responsibly), drill, split, or attack it with a fleet of greenies wielding sanding blocks for weeks, but I'd like through-access to be restored, and after repair, the trail should retain the same character it had before repair.

I believe it would help to define a Maintenance Standard that the County can use as a yardstick of when to maintain and how much work will be required.

Randii
 
#3 ·
randii said:
... the biggest buggies (with drivers with the biggest balls) can barely make it over the top...
Perhaps we should also suggest a 'ball size standard?' :p :flipoff2:

Someone else can handle the enforcement on that one! :eek: :laughing: :barf:

Randii
 
#5 ·
I should have been more clear on that, but yes - maintenance wise the people in stock jeeps laughed at the trail. I saw one broken axle but that is to be expected. As for a standard I think we are good vehicle wise. Environmentally that is a different story - which is why I think the tire/vehicle way of setting standards is well.. a joke.
 
#6 ·
I figured we were saying the same thing, B, but wanted to get out in front of the issue.

It is worth noting that stock Jeep Rubicon TJs have come a l-o-n-g way since the stock YJ, IMHO -- chiefly in terms of lockers, gears, suspensions, and axle strength. Should be interesting to see what the JK (KJ?) will be like... Regardless, a good driver can get many stock rigs through with minimal damage...

Randii
 
#8 ·
scotte said:
Brandon, what do you mean by "laughed at the trail"? What's wrong with a well equipped (if stock) vehicle being able to run the trail? Seems to me that's pretty consistent with the historic use of the Rubicon right there!

I agree 100%

What I am saying and what I have been saying is that I don't see how setting a design vehicle will do anything for the trail. By laughed at I mean had no problems. Randii is definately right on though, these jeeps are impressive. There was a lot of in the air wheel action but due to the gearing and lockers they just kept moving as to where the KJ would have been in trouble.

The flic was good, neat to see stockers doing the trail :cool2:
 
#12 ·
scotte said:
Thanks for the clarification... I have that episode on my DVR, but haven't watched it yet, I'll have to do that. I think it goes back to what Randy was saying, and really liked the example of the big rock and to what standard it needs to be fixed.

You had the privelidge of driving a built rig on your first trip across the trail, mine was stock for several seasons. It's a good experience, you STACK rocks and you use a spotter, come along, etc. It's an entirely different experience but the thing is.. that big rock won't stop you. You simply stack rocks or use your come along or..

I don't have the solution for when to repair the trail and to what standard but my reccomendation (broken record) is to allow clubs to "manage" sections of the trail. Give RNR walker hill or whatever, then they maintain it to the standard they feel is best. As a community we give input to RNR and say you guys are doing a kick ass job or maybe they give suggestions etc.

Of course I don't mean let clubs re-route the trail or pave it, it is simply for maintenance not modification..

How do you define maintenance? I think that is the issue and why Randii has the vehicle spec idea, I just don't think there is a concrete "bar" to be set, each spot and issues is different and needs to be addressed differently. If there was any "bar" it would be an environmental or geological one, I guess :confused: but.. I don't know why we need a bar, it should be obvious when something needs work.. like the spot before the sluice that has become a parking lot of dirt, etc.
 
#13 ·
Brandon said:
... that big rock won't stop you. You simply stack rocks or use your come along or...
I understand what you are saying, but I picked the Cadillac Hill scenario purposefully, as it has been repaired over the years in exactly this instance, and the circumstances of attempting to pass a blckage and failing are dire. Certainly a few folks with equipment, testosteron, and/or stupidity will ALWAYS be able to pass, but access to the Rubicon *must* be retained for more than just those few, no matter how many rocks are stacked.

Your point with volunteer clubs is well-taken, and work is moving along nicely to get the Counties to formalize recognition of multiple Adopt-a-Trail (AAT)segments of the trail. The way I visualize it, the club would handle most projects, and escalate through FOTR to pull together larger resources and more complicated plans, with County DOT available as still another level of escalation/equipment/skill.

Those volunteer clubs will have significant latitude, but IMHO there needs to be a *general* set of guidelines for trail maintance. Some folks would bellyache if the Weight-Down-Low Club for Rockwells and 52s groomed their AAT section for their preferences, other folks would bellyache if the 4WD Toyota Tercel Club for groomed their AAT section for their 25" tires. IMHO, I don't wanna see 'grooming' but rather cleanup often and maintenance only as required. Brandon, said it well: "maintenance not modification."

Randii
 
#15 ·
Brandon said:
You had the privelidge of driving a built rig on your first trip across the trail, mine was stock for several seasons. It's a good experience, you STACK rocks and you use a spotter, come along, etc. It's an entirely different experience but the thing is.. that big rock won't stop you. You simply stack rocks or use your come along or..
Actually, I know this well! While my first trip as a driver was in the 4runner, I've been passenger (read rock stacker and strap jockey) in nearly stock vehicles on the trail before.

But there's a point where the mythical rock-in-question is too big such that even stacking rocks is out of the question. I think that's the argument here.
 
#16 ·
Branodon I saw that episode also.

I have read the before posts.

Yes the Jeep Rubicon has broght Jeep along way, but lets not forget the importance of the spoters on that trip. An experienced spotter who knows the trail and the rig being driven makes a big difference.

My first time through the rubicon was with a semi stock IFS truck, it was a blast. With the help of my co-pilot/spotter, Alex Wrangler and my buddy Mark Harris spotter/trail leader, the entire group had a blast.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I saw the episode last nite. I saw a bunch of people laughing, and having a great time. I saw some obvious pucker moments in places like the deep V on walker. I saw a group of professional (paid/organized by JJUSA) spotters and rock rollers responsible for getting the vehicles through. What I didn't see was anyone laughing at the trail being easy.
 
#19 ·
I also saw some bent rear quarters and front bumper corners re,oved. When you see those things in person after they get in, you can tell they've earned their scars. White is the new paint color for the undercarriage. O doubt olsd sluice was included in the journey. I think you can make it as hard as you want. I did enjoy the coverage of the trail though. The opening shot of Gatekeeper was tough to watch...............
 
#20 ·
if you were to ask me my recomendation for a minimum tire size to run wrecking ball i would suggest a 35 tire, however I have personally whitnessed a sami run it with a bit of work from a very experianced driver on almost bald 31" all terrains.

it's all about the drivers experiance in my opinion
 
#21 · (Edited)
Ya know I have been to quite a few FOTR events (8 or 9, 11 or 12 including the annual meets). And I have been to the last 3 annual FOTR meetings. I have met most all of the players and have yet to meet you Brandon???? Yet I have read non stop BS stirring the negative pot from you for at least two years.

I wonder why that is?

I really wonder?

So my question is when is your rhetoric going to take second place to your dedication to preserving the trail?

This is the circle of spit. (i.e. ideas and plans)


When might I have the honor of meeting you in the circle of sweat? (i.e. working with hands and making things happen).

I personally think we have way to many chiefs and not enough indians. Or maybe way to many folks who think they are chiefs.....needless to say I am sick of all the rhetoric and lack of action from people who have so much to say. My patience towards this behavior is gone to say the least.

So I guess this is the first "Put up or Shut up" call towards you Brandon whoever you are.

What do you all think?

If I am out of line please tell me! But I have 0% idea who this feller is and moreover what he stands for??? Kinda reminds me of a Seagull....flies in shits all over everything then leaves???? Am I wrong?

Best Regards,

PJ

I guess if I am I can always apologize!!
 
#22 · (Edited)
That's fair, I helped with a lot of the early pirate clean ups, I am an ex Pirates of the Rubicon member and I formed the club "River City Rock Crawlers" and we did a lot to try to save our local BLM land aka "Jergins." We also put on fund raisers and donated a pretty good chunk of change to the BLM.

At one time I would go to the meetings and the work parties, along with my son and my wife. With the addition of kid #2 I just haven't had the time. Really, I'll admit - I just haven't made it a priority. Seeing the effort go into Jergins and then seeing a bunch of fences go up put a sore taste in my mouth. I realized that when it comes down to it isn't our decision to make. In this case even though in the end someone could decide for us I don't like to see us dig our own grave so to speak. At this point in my life I try to keep up with what is going on as best I can but no, I am not involved - but I've been running the rubicon for 15 years now and I come from a four wheeling family, I'll be around - and I'll be back eventually ;)

BTW I was at the FOTR meeting the year before last so you coulda seen me then ;) Another reason for the 2 years that I parted out my truck about then so the drive really hasn't been there but I am working on another rig with a back seat for the family. I did make it up to the Fordyce cleanup and the TDO taco fund raiser last year, but that's about it.

Eventually this lil dude and me will be back in action, and seeing as you are in sac your more then welcome to come on by and check out my project/say hey anytime

 
#24 ·
Brandon said:
Eventually this lil dude and me will be back in action, and seeing as you are in sac your more then welcome to come on by and check out my project/say hey anytime

That is nothing less than Awesome!! Great pic of your Son I bet he will get a kick out of that photo someday. I hope I did not offend you with my words.

I am originally from Montana, in my early 20's ('89) I used to work in the woods as a logger. We were fighting for the woods at that point, and the greenies were fighting us back by spiking trees and picketing timber sales. When I finally got laid off from the mill I had a terrible taste in my mouth. I pretty much lost everything and had to start over from scratch...no biggy but none the less a pretty good burn.

I know I came upon this Rubicon scene late, after the original issues. Although not a lifetime RT user I had read and dreamed about it for almost 20 years before I got my first trip through. That is when I met FOTR, and man what a great buncha folks!! Talk about getting inspired by folks who were fighting the fight!


So my point is this. I HATE our enemy with a passion. I will not stop, falter, or give up on giving these guys as much fight as I can muster. If we lose one battle I will find another one to fight in. NOTHING except complete victory will stop me. We are gonna lose some and win some but to give up on the game after a heartbreaking defeat is something we must not let ourselves do IMHO. We need to gather ourselves up dust ourselves off and get back in the fight or we will lose it all. May sound kinda corny but that is the American way....you gotta get back on the horse. The longer you wait the more difficult it is.

Anyway I appreciate your time and explanation and once again I hope I did not come across to offensive. Would like to see your project and swap stories sometime, and since I am unemployed for the next month I have tons of free time :D…..Whatcha building?

As far as tire size and the trail.... I am with everyone who said it is the driver. As far as a trail maintenance standard, I like the sound of different clubs taking different sections of trail, and everyone gives feedback on whether is needs work or needs to be left alone.

Best Regards,

PJ
 
#25 ·
Tire Sizes and Standards

I have lost track of where I have posted this idea, but I want to say again: I hesitate to talk numbers, guidelines or tire sizes for the Rubicon Trail. Especially standards -- standards end up being someone's idea of a RULE (usually a government someone). Like whether we like buggies, truggies, juggies or jeeps on the Rubicon, it's the DRIVER not the rig. It's the driver, not the tire size. Some folks want to keep big boy rigs off the trail (Hummers and full size rigs). I don't see that as a solution.

Management, education, enforcement and engineering are the solutions. At least that is where I try to come from as much as possible. I don't want to see you park your rig because the color does not blend in with the environment (smile).

Del
 
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