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Is this right?

  • Yea, he's ok, Del, let's not get excited

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yea, we have a right to wheel where we want

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, it's not right and this is a bad image for us

    Votes: 80 97.6%
  • I'm not sure....I can't decide which way to go on this

    Votes: 2 2.4%

Is this right?

2K views 31 replies 19 participants last post by  afecko 
#1 ·
Let me ask you, is this the kind of pic we want on public web sites where those who don't like us can see what some of us do -- even when there appears to be no trail here? Is this the kind of image that is going to hurt us beyond belief? This is not the Rubicon; but worthy of me asking you how you feel about this sorta bragging rights on a public forum?

Thanks ,Del:confused:
 

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#4 ·
if you are on green, live plant life, you shouldnt be.

but it really only applies to you if you know about the trouble the con is in, if this is some joe shmuck who has never heard of the fotr, or any of the other groups and about any of the issues how would you know how bad this is?
 
#5 ·
peesalot said:
If it is private land ? , if it is public IMO he has no right to volunteer himself to drive over vegitation that all of us own.

so lets for the sake of the picture it is on private land, heck he even owns it and it was documented on his personel website.

But the picture gets out... Now you have scenero #2, greenie see it, shows it to greenie #2 and they have now pulled the picture away from the orginal owners site and documentation. They now use this to show that all motorized users destroy vegitation and if we were not allowed to use the trails this precious life would stop being killed off.

Any picture showing any type of damage to vegitation is bad for fight to keep trails open. Even if it is on private property. This of course is just my opinion.
 
#6 ·
To answer your question: NO NO NO , this is definately not the type of pic. or image we want branded on " the 4-wheeler "

I don't see how one can sit in the driver seat and call that 4 wheeling- let alone rock crawling, it would not even feel right regardless of private or public land. When I was 19 yrs old I did'nt know jack about resource maintanance and/or damage, I admit I did go into an area that was not a designated trail, it was foliage heavy and after about 10-20 feet of this, a light bulb came on above my head :idea: saying to me this doesn't feel right, and since it has been a goal to learn the is rights and wrongs of off roading, and camping, that includes vehicle fluid impacts as well as the places our tires go. My point being ... some people just need to be slapped before they get it. :D ... We need more education / more widespread word of the impacts of these trailbreaking behaviors... of course in a controlled manner.

Del, this down right sucks, the picture definately hurts the cause.

If everyone who has and offroad vehicle buys a lift in order to go offroad, that company, as well as every off road company should be saying in their far reaching advertising campaign... " Tread Lightly " , after all, it is the survival our trails that fuel the need for their parts which fuel the industries growth, Correct? If we have one trail taken away every year or every few years, due to resource damage, that is not going to help the longevity of our activity / passion .
That is just the way I think sorry if it is off subject or extreme.

take care,
 
#7 ·
No it's not right even if it was private land which it was not.
My feeling is SHORT rope tall tree and a good strong wind for effect.

I cannot understand how someone can even think that this is oK:shaking:
 
#17 · (Edited)
I'd like to see another option added to your poll, Del.

"Doesn't matter, there are plenty of places where you can go on an average weekend and take pictures of trail abuse."

That would be my vote. Do you think the people that are trying to shut us down don't go out and snap pics every weekend? Heck, many areas are abused enough that you don't need to catch anybody in the act, just take a couple of pics of tire tracks through vegetation, some spilled oil, etc. Here's a good example (see the bold statement):

Excerpted from:

Sierra Citizen: One Big Urban Forest

By: Tim Holt, Sierra Citizen
Published: Jun 26, 2006 at 08:15

Like the mountain bikers, motorized recreationists are well organized. They have developed a close, symbiotic relationship with the overseers of public lands in the area, especially the Forest Service. And their numbers are increasing dramatically.

David Michael, who supervises off-highway vehicle (OHV) use in the Tahoe National Forest, says OHV owners in the U.S. shot up from 5 million in 1972 to 51 million in 2006. "The baby boomers aren't out there hiking as much as they used to," states Michael. "They're buying an ATV or a motorcycle and taking their grandkids out on it."

Indeed, it seems that much of the country's adult population - baby boomers and others - regard the idea of tramping through the woods with a backpack and a pair of hiking boots as just too much work.

"The whole world is becoming a drive-to environment," laments former park ranger Jordan Fisher-Smith, author of Nature Noir.

Critical OHV Issues

In an age of tightening federal budgets, federal public lands managers rely heavily on OHV clubs to help with everything from trail maintenance to cleaning restrooms.
Currently, these clubs and others who recreate in the Tahoe National Forest are participating in a comprehensive review of how much public access should be allowed in the forest's 847,245 acres. All current trails, legal and illegal, have been included in a recently completed map, and Michael and other Forest Service officials are mulling over which ones should be placed on a final map to be published by September 2008. Once that map is out, according to Michael, no new authorized trails can be added.

But some observers are concerned that the result will be the legalization of hundreds of miles of previously illegal motorized trails cut through the Tahoe wilderness. Michael, while not directly denying this claim, states that the Forest Service would resist pressure from OHV clubs to increase the number of legal trails, and the main criteria would be to allow only those trails that are "sustainable" from an environmental standpoint. (An example would be trails that do not contribute to erosion problems.)

Mike Bashore of the Grass Valley 4 Wheelers echoes that sentiment. "We're not going to get any new legal trails," he shrugs. "There's just too much pressure from environmentalists."

Still, there are skeptics like John Timmer, a former Yosemite park ranger, who has spent a lot of time fighting the abuse of public lands by off-road vehicles. "The Forest Service talks a good game," he says, "but when that final map comes out, I think you're going to see a lot more motorized trails."

On that subject, author Fisher-Smith advises, "Get on the [Forest Service] mailing list, and show up and be vocal at the meetings. Otherwise, if the OHV crowd gets 100 out to the meetings, and there are only three conservationists, you know which way things are going to go."

John Timmer has already done his share of vocalizing and letter-writing. What has really motivated his activism has been ongoing OHV abuse of a section of the Yuba watershed at Indian Springs, upstream from Lake Spaulding and readily accessible from I-80. It is a popular, and legal, OHV staging area in the Tahoe Forest, but not everyone stays on the designated trails. Timmer has seen plenty of evidence, "kind of like a spreading cancer," of OHV abuse: ruts carved all over the forest floor, trampled brush, and extensive cuts in the riverbank from vehicles that gouged out their own river crossings. One rock that sticks up from the riverbank at a 45-degree angle is used as a "traction test," according to Timmer, with vehicles attempting to power up the rock and then crashing back down on the streambed. This kind of activity, also involving vehicles driving up and down the streambed, destroys streambank vegetation and causes serious erosion problems.

Timmer has led a persistent campaign to protect and restore the area. Repeated contacts and letters to the Forest Service have resulted in more barriers being placed to keep vehicles on designated trails, but officials admit they do not have sufficient personnel to adequately patrol the area and prevent abuse. They have suggested that Timmer call the county sheriff, an idea that he dismisses as futile.

Within the last few years, legal OHV trails have been added to a large area downstream from Indian Springs - a beautiful, riparian oasis of cascading waterfalls and imposing granite outcroppings. Timmer describes it as "a little piece of Yosemite," and he's worried that it will fall victim to the same patterns of abuse.
 
#18 ·
Frustrating article, Andy. I'm trying to reach this fella to find out what alternate universe he lives in where "Within the last few years, legal OHV trails have been added to a large area downstream from Indian Springs." That seems like a lie, but if such areas have been added, I'd like to visit them.

Some quick research yielded:
John Timmer, 13925 Meadow View Dr, Grass Valley, CA 95945
(530) 273-8127; (530) 273-2332
Randii
 
#19 ·
All current trails, legal and illegal, have been included in a recently completed map, and Michael and other Forest Service officials are mulling over which ones should be placed on a final map to be published by September 2008. Once that map is out, according to Michael, no new authorized trails can be added.
No new trails? Not what I've been led to believe.................
 
#20 ·
cruzila said:
No new trails? Not what I've been led to believe.................
Agreed. USFS is saying in the Eldorado National Forest Route Designation meetings that new trails will be possible, but that any such "ground-changing impacts" will require full site-by-site NEPA analysis.

FWIW, I have low hopes for actually getting new trail through that process, but it at least defines the process, instead of an absolute ban on new trail development.

Randii
 
#21 ·
It's getting harder for us to find and maintain relationships with land owners here on the east coast, and pictures like this don't help. I help out as a trail coordinator with a local club, and we're down to 2 or 3 smaller areas where we can trail ride. Anyone who posts any pictures that can be construed as environmentally irresponsible needs to have their fingers broken! The treehuggers are all over the 'net, they pay folks to look for pics just like that to use as ammo! If we could only get as organized as they are, we could put them in their place and quit losing recreation areas!
 
#22 ·
this image and our future

The sad truth is, this image IS on public land and it IS one of our trails -- Niagara Rim trail up highway 108 near Sonora Pass.

This pic is out there. I just captured it from a popular web site and posted it to show us what we are doing to ourselves.

Tickets are being issued on the Rubicon for parking near Buck Island more than 25 feet off the *trail.* Tickets for goodness sake...for being parked on slabs we've used for 50 years. We are fighting an ugly battle and we need ALL the troops carrying the right ammo and waving the right flag. Write that one down... :)
Del
 
#24 ·
I have been working with the Mendocino National Forest Rangers on keeping a portion of the Cabbage Patch trail open to access the South Fork of the Eel river above Lake Pillsbury.

I have gone to all of the Route Designation workshops & have established a good working relationship with a few of them. According to them the NEPA standards are an 800 lb gorilla.

At the last route // campsite designation meeting I mentioned that I have helped with Trail Patrol on the Rubicon. The first thing they said when I mentioned that was how messed up the trail was & how Spider Lake was closed due to 4wd vehicles. I did my best to explain otherwise. I was amazed (and sad) about how much the Spider Lake closure tarnished our image as a group - especially when so many good things have been done since that go unnoticed.

We are loosing the PR war & pics like this will further tarnish our image.
 
#25 ·
elarsen said:
...We are loosing the PR war ...
Yes we definitely are, becuase we keep playing catch-up. They catch us doin something bad, ie. the pic. We hurry up and try to fix it. Then its starts all over again.. !!STOP!!!We need to turn the public opinion around, start pointing out that we're the only ones cleaning and maintaining the trails. Start making bumper stickers and wearing T-shirts that make statements like "I spent my wknd cleaning up the trail , where was the Sierra Club?" (I buy one and put it on my rig, or I'd wear the T-shirt to the mall.

Stop being Clark Kent and start being Superman, dont do the right thing and hope ppl take notice. Get out there and tell ppl what your club or your buddies did to improve the outdoors. Take that yuppy next door on your next trip. Unfortunately he'll probably see some bad stuff, just let him know that's not the norm, then prove it to him by pointing out trail improvements, etc.

We cant win all the battles and we cant stop every jerk from doin stupid stuff. But we have to keep fighting. Remember we already have great role models (Del, I dont know you but have watched, admired and appreciated your work for a while now) to follow. So get the word out about the good thimgs we're doin. And if you have media access and you're not doin anything to get the stories of all the trailwork being done you're as much of the prob as the dillhole in the pic.

Thank you,
Ryan
 
#26 ·
Jeepndel said:
The sad truth is, this image IS on public land and it IS one of our trails -- Niagara Rim trail up highway 108 near Sonora Pass.

This pic is out there. I just captured it from a popular web site and posted it to show us what we are doing to ourselves.

Tickets are being issued on the Rubicon for parking near Buck Island more than 25 feet off the *trail.* Tickets for goodness sake...for being parked on slabs we've used for 50 years. We are fighting an ugly battle and we need ALL the troops carrying the right ammo and waving the right flag. Write that one down... :)
Del
\




DEL


even though it is not right. the forest servive has opened the whole rock pile up for wheeling. so yes there are fools out there that are running over the bushes. that is our club trail and we are the ones that clean it up from all the others. it sucks yes i know. but we work hard to keep that trail open. i guess once people found out that they opened up the whole area they just started going every where.


jeff
 
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