With the all stuff that is going on I thought I should find out if the trail is ok for use from Mckinstry to Ellis crossing. Does anyone know for sure. I know the trail has been in use for decades but I dont want to get a ticket for being where I am not suposed to be.
BACKGROUND
There are two jurisdictions to the tral connecting the Rubicon Trail at Ellis Creek with 14N05, which comes in next to McKinstry Lake:
* 14N34B across public land, Eldorado National Forest
* private property, Sierra Pacific Industries (SPI)
PUBLIC LAND
USFS is divided amongst themselves on this issue, FWIW. One ranger in particular tells us at every juncture that the whole connector between Rubicon and 14N05 is illegal -- including 14N34B -- and will never be made legal. The Route Designation team, on the other hand, has listed 14N34B as part of the System Roads and Trails shown on the grayscale Motor Vehicle Restriction Map.
...yet this road has been in use since the mid-70s, at least.
PRIVATE LAND
The real rub, is the trail that crosses SPI land connecting 14N34B (which is on the forest service land to the south), and Forest Service road 14N05 (which is a numbered USFS road, which should have an easement across the SPI section).
...yet this road has been in use since the 70s, at least, and IMHO there is a well-established history of public use. Dunno whether SPI has exercised sufficient claims to private property to prevent the public from claiming right of passage, nor do I know whether Placer County (not El Dorado County -- check the county line) is interested in fighting an RS-2477 battle -- I'd bet not.
TICKETS?
If LEO enforces according to the Motor Vehicle Restriction Map (grayscale), the piece of that trail on USFS land is 14N34B, and thus legal.
On the private land, as I understand it, you should not get a ticket from the National Forest or the County unless there's a new memorandum of understanding (MOU) that has been signed with the private property owners, Sierra Pacific Industries (SPI). You may get a trespassing ticket from SPI private security.
It certainly complicates things that the connector runs across private property, national forest, and two counties... even more-so when you consider that the national forest and one of the counties are currently in the midst of revamping their process with respect to the trail.
It is a serious grey area, one that likely won't be cleared up until the counties and feds wrap up their process ... if you 'wheel this route, be aware that you do so at your own risk, with the *possibility* of potential prosecution. IMHO, it is unlikely, and there is a chance of using the resulting court case(s) to set the record straight, but that won't be a slam dunk.
BACKGROUND
There are two jurisdictions to the tral connecting the Rubicon Trail at Ellis Creek with 14N05, which comes in next to McKinstry Lake:
* 14N34B across public land, Eldorado National Forest
* private property, Sierra Pacific Industries (SPI)
PUBLIC LAND
USFS is divided amongst themselves on this issue, FWIW. One ranger in particular tells us at every juncture that the whole connector between Rubicon and 14N05 is illegal -- including 14N34B -- and will never be made legal. The Route Designation team, on the other hand, has listed 14N34B as part of the System Roads and Trails shown on the grayscale Motor Vehicle Restriction Map.
...yet this road has been in use since the mid-70s, at least.
PRIVATE LAND
The real rub, is the trail that crosses SPI land connecting 14N34B (which is on the forest service land to the south), and Forest Service road 14N05 (which is a numbered USFS road, which should have an easement across the SPI section).
...yet this road has been in use since the 70s, at least, and IMHO there is a well-established history of public use. Dunno whether SPI has exercised sufficient claims to private property to prevent the public from claiming right of passage, nor do I know whether Placer County (not El Dorado County -- check the county line) is interested in fighting an RS-2477 battle -- I'd bet not.
It seams like where ever we go these days we do so at our own risk and at the mercy of law enforcement.
Thank You for the info
An FYI. I personaly have been using this trail since the late 50's. There used to be a second trail that skirted the marsh and medows on the other side of the lake. It started down toward Wentworth Springs and then made a right crossing Jarret Creek and came out on the Bunker Hill road. Since the logging road was cut in it has not been used and has grown over so that it is no longer recognizeable. Oren (a past owner of Wentworth Springs) started a road behind the Wentworth Hotel where the foot trail to Mckinstry was but it only went up a short way to take out some timber, I believe it too is now grown over.
I've been on that road once 2 years ago....We went past McKinstry lake...and about 30 feet before the Rubicon trail....the road just vanished. I must have missed something....
Personally...the thing about the way...is it basically places you between stuff that could be beyond your rig.
I could see some family in their Ford Explorer who now found themselves in a bad way because they popped in that way. At least Loon and Wentworth offer obstacles before you get too far in.
Personally...the thing about the way...is it basically places you between stuff that could be beyond your rig.
I could see some family in their Ford Explorer who now found themselves in a bad way because they popped in that way. At least Loon and Wentworth offer obstacles before you get too far in.
I can certainly understand your thinking here BUT when as a society did we loose the common sense gene? Do we need to block access to a well used trail because someone MIGHT get THEMSELVES into a bad situation by not turning around when they see things are getting too much for their vehicle. I have to hope that people are still somewhat responsible for their own actions and partake in a little common sense.
I've been on that road once 2 years ago....We went past McKinstry lake...and about 30 feet before the Rubicon trail....the road just vanished. I must have missed something....
Personally...the thing about the way...is it basically places you between stuff that could be beyond your rig.
I could see some family in their Ford Explorer who now found themselves in a bad way because they popped in that way. At least Loon and Wentworth offer obstacles before you get too far in.
I can certainly understand your thinking here BUT when as a society did we loose the common sense gene? Do we need to block access to a well used trail because someone MIGHT get THEMSELVES into a bad situation by not turning around when they see things are getting too much for their vehicle. I have to hope that people are still somewhat responsible for their own actions and partake in a little common sense.
I know....I agree with you. I was just speculating on the part of society without that gene.
I will tell a quick story where I got that from...We were riding up to the top of Sourdough...and there were like 4 of us....I was last. When I got to the top, there were my other 3 friends (Including my wife) and they were talking to this family in an ESCALADE.
I walked over to the Escalade driver and he says (with wife in passenger seat and 2 kids watching DVD's in the back) and he says...."How do I get to the Rubicon Springs?"
I said...IN THAT?
My other 3 friends and wife burst out laughing....Apparently, they all said the same thing and he didn't believe 'em.
And so again I guess the conversation comes full circle and back to education. As we all know people in general are spending more and more time recreating in the wilderness areas wether it be motorized or on foot but the fact remains we need to educate more in an effort to curtail these kind of situations. With that said I still feel that the attitude of "I got my dumb ass into this mess now I need to deal with it" is somewhat a thing of the past (responsibility for ones actions). I have run into more and more people that have got themselves into a bad predicament and expect other people, wether that be LEO's, Search and Rescue or just poor old kind hearted joe public to clean up their self inflicted mess. I'm sure technology advancement has alot to do with this. People have a certain false feeling of safety having their cell phone strapped to their hip and On Star in the Escalade. Anyway I digress.......just thinking out loud.
Anybody can get themselves in over their head. Case in point, I was hiking around the springs last year during one of the Jeep Jambos when I noticed something strange dangling from the line on the helicopter. When I got a clear view of it through the trees I could see that it was a motorcycle. Seems a couple of guys rode into the springs from the Tahoe side and couldn't get their bikes back up Cadaillac. After several attempts they resorted to hiring the helicopter guy to fly them back to the top of the hill.
Closing the McKinstry road won't keep fools off the trail. In fact I seriously doubt it will have any effect on the trail whatsoever, except that it may make it harder to get supplies into the various work parties.
I have serious concerns about this entrance, as well, but I believe that these concerns are resolveable. WHEN (not IF) the route is hardened over Ellis Creek (by bridge, Arizona crossing, or whatever), a route will be required for equipment. That seems like the right time to manage this decision...
FOTR and RTF are working this issue behind the scenes...
No, I really don't have a Mercury that I want to get to the Springs, but I just want to tell you a short story.
For two years, Farabee's has had a Jeep rental place in Tahoe -- trying it out to see if they had a market place here like they do in CO and Utah (Moab).
Well, of course they told folks not to do the Rubicon with these rigs as they were not built for it.
Needless to say, many renters did try...and many rigs were damaged, some totalled. The bottom line: one un-named source told me that more than a few Jeep renters came with the attitude of, *hey, we saw the video on the Rubicon Trail and we're ready to tackle it*
I just pulled up the route inventory map and it shows 2 roads in that area 14n05 and 14n34b 14n34b leaves from Ellis headind toward McKinstry but not going all the way. 14n05 from McKinstry heads toward Ellis but stops just short of the Rubicon Trail. It would seem that atvobession (ken Hower) didnt miss anything he just found the end of the road. My personal interpretation of the map is that there is no legal way to go from McKinstry to Ellis Crossing at the present time.
Thank You all who have responded
Dick Wentworth
...the route inventory map and it shows 2 roads in that area 14n05 and 14n34:
* 14n34b leaves from Ellis heading toward McKinstry but not going all the way.
* 14n05 from McKinstry heads toward Ellis but stops just short of the Rubicon Trail.
My personal interpretation of the map is that there is no legal way to go from McKinstry to Ellis Crossing at the present time.
There's important data missing from those maps, though -- the inventory maps blot out the data for roads/trails on private property (makes sense, from one perspective, since the Route Designation process applies only to USFS lands, but not from another, as Route Designation considers the context of adjacent property).
If you are a geek (I am), it is possible to tear the data apart underneath the white box that represents the private propert on the quarter quad at: http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/documents/route/maps/enf_se_wentworthsprings.pdf
...there is a connector between the two bulleted routes that Dick mentioned above (I added the bullets to his words for clarity). I have subsetted the data:
I would argue that the legality of this route is still in question, but it needs more research, as it does cross private land. The Route Designation team classified it as a 'non-forest road,' but there is a FS number attached to at least part of it.
Very interesting geek talk Randi (seriously)...I happened to have a conversation with Jon and Adam (USFS Recreation Techs, i.e. no gun rangers) last week. They were placing "No Motorized Access" red sticks on the uphill side of the trail just past Ellis (yes, they issued a citation there last week for some moron who was creeping around the forest in his vehicle). On the subject of this route, one of them said, "I agree that the McKinstry trail is more of a relief valve for broken rigs to leave the Rubicon than an access point, but my impression is that management is determined to limit access to the Rubicon Trail, and they don't want McKinstry opened".
Del probably saw them there too as I had just said "hi" to him going the other way.
What I know...
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