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Old 05-29-2002, 08:59 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Trail Signs

We need to survey the trail and post some signs to help folks stay on the legitimate trail. We're looking for ideas. Many folks believe that if we put out pretty signs saying Rubicon, they'll end up as souveniers in garages.

Carsonite signs; signs painted in rocks; kiosks with signs; all these have been discussed so far.

But one way or the other, the trail needs to be surveyed and marked to the original county road (unmaintained) that is was in the late 1800's.

Ideas?
visit: www.friendsoftherubicon.com

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Old 05-29-2002, 10:02 AM   #2 (permalink)
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It could be chiseled/blasted into the wall in the spillway. That way they can not steal/deface it. The letters could be repainted every couple of years.

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Old 05-29-2002, 11:47 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Del, I do not agree with the thought that they will be destroyed! Why, you ask? Because WE HAVE A SIGN at the spillway allready! It has been there for two years (or more?) and it has nar a scratch on it, much less any bullet holes or tire tracks on it! Of course we built it to withstand abuse - it's made out of 1/2" thick stainless steel plate, with a solid stainless steel post..... Have you seen the sign? It is very nice... I suppose we need a BIGGER one to take it's place, with more information on it.
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Old 05-29-2002, 12:04 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Regarding signage:

1) Do we need special authorization from the county to post the signs and where we can post them?

2) Do we need to have the county's authorization to threaten (so to speak) fines on the signs.
.....A) Would the authorities follow through with ticketing etc.?
.....B) How much per violation is the fine? ie. littering, Littering is punishable to up to $500, yada yada yada.
.....C) Could or Would the Law Enforcement Officer fairly distinguish between deliberate violation and accidental?
.....D) Where would the moneys from the ticketing go to?
..........i) Is it possible for the funds obtained from the tickets be dispersed between the Law Enforcement Agency, Forestry Service, FOTR or Rubicon Trail (which is the same to most of us).

3) Can we get metal plaques made up and placed in the granite or rocks at the beginning of both ends? Very visible, posslibly set in a position that cannot be covered by snow and dirt.

I believe that if a few people got ticketed and it got around then the fewer the times we would have the problems and fewer the times the LEO's would have to help us out in that area.
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Old 05-29-2002, 12:22 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I think signs are a great idea. They could include a number to contact the Sheriff's dept to report illegal activity. That would let people know that they are being watched and could be reported.
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Old 05-29-2002, 01:55 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Where there are trees, I like blue reflective diamonds like what are used on designated snow mobile routes. They can be spaced as far or as close as need be and do work day or night.

I don't know how to mark the open areas that have no trees. I usally follow the oil stains at night when I'm not sure where to go. This does not always take me where I want to go...

Overall, on the trail, I think less is better and unless you are looking for the signs you should not have to have them in your face.

The Kiosks can explain the signage and how to find them.
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Old 05-29-2002, 08:08 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Can the signs have mileage on them. Easier to tell where your at and to send for help. I agree with Lance that they would not dissapear as much as you would like to beleive.
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Old 05-30-2002, 11:05 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Modest Signage

I think we should do as few signs as possible, but as many as required. There are two issues, really -- signs at the trail entrances and trail markers along the trail.

TRAIL MARKERS
Blue diamonds are a great idea -- and some of our RCRC friends at Caltrans can probably turn us onto blue or white reflective glue-down reflectors like they use on the highway that are resistant to being run over. These can be glued to the granite, or we can get up there with masonry drill bits and tack them down, as well.

If our trail markers look too good, I agree that they may be stolen. Minimalism is best in design, but I think we need to mark the trail as clearly as possible to keep people ON the trail. In Moab, the way they do this is painting markers that can be seen, one from the next, along the length of a trail (of course, since most Moab trails are day runs, night visibility is less of an issue). That may not sound all that great for Rubicon, since it would mean laying down a LOT of markers, but I really think we may need to err on the side of marking too much to keep yahoos from going off-trail, and to make their prosecution easier when they do go off-trail.

SIGNS
The sign the Pirates erected at the spillway a year and a half ago was NOT sanctioned by the forest service, but rather an ask-forgiveness-instead-of-permission style maneuver (one I approve of, BTW). FOTR needs to do whatever is required to obtain permission and cooperation from the various land managers.

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Old 05-30-2002, 11:26 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Modest Signage

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Originally posted by randii
NOT sanctioned by the forest service, but rather an ask-forgiveness-instead-of-permission style maneuver (one I approve of, BTW). FOTR needs to do whatever is required to obtain permission and cooperation from the various land managers.

Randii
Actually USFS does not own that property... SMUD does. We went through the proper channels...
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Old 05-30-2002, 04:38 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I vote for part markers, use a paintball gun to mark the trees, rocks up about 25 feet. The paint is water soluble, cheap and serves the same purpose as the blue diamonds, albeit not permanent.
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Old 05-31-2002, 07:42 AM   #11 (permalink)
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do we not want permanent?
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Old 06-01-2002, 10:36 PM   #12 (permalink)
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do we not want permanent?
IMHO we want nearly permanent --- but removable with the right tools and time. Signs nailed to a tree could be quickly removed by eco-weenies trying to disrupt our efforts (yeah, they make me paranoid).

Reflectors GLUED to the rocks -- it would be tough to pull up every one without getting noticed.

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Old 06-02-2002, 09:43 AM   #13 (permalink)
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IMHO I'm strictly against any king of signage except at the trailheads. I've been running the Rubicon for over six years, day and night runs, and never had trouble knowing where the trail was. I do believe that all bypass should be blocked with natural resources not man made. If someone can't make the more difficult portions of the trail then winch or get towed, but stay on the trail don't tray and bypass. Education is the name of the game, respect what we have before we lose it.
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Old 06-02-2002, 11:00 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I think reflectors are a great idea. They are very unobtrusive, but would mark the way for newbies.
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Old 06-02-2002, 12:47 PM   #15 (permalink)
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i think trails should be marked alot of backpacking trails are marked and if done correctly they "blend" but let the newbies what is the trail and whats out of bounds. the blue markers glued to rocks is a good idea has any one tried to remove one from the road? if not go out side and try
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Old 06-02-2002, 01:01 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I think marking the trail is a great idea. The little markers is sweet, there reflective nature will make them stand out day or night.

Asking the sheiffs dept. to help is a horrible idea. Tt gives fuel to the eco-nazi's and makes us look like he can't control our own. Also, the tickets are not going to go to anything i want to support (pay raises, new cop race cars, etc.).
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Old 06-02-2002, 07:23 PM   #17 (permalink)
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FWIW, several priorities have ALREADY been set -- we need to get behind them....
1.) the trail will be surveyed, marked, and many spur trails closed (we can work with the land managers to identify the spurs that should remain) Marking the trail will help folks stay on the trail. No matter how well any of us knows the trail, there is confusion -- think of the trail out the top of Little Sluice where the various bypasses come down, where the hillside is tore up -- I can think of three discrete routes there -- which is the main route? IMHO, there's no real downside to marking the trail unobtrusively.
2.) Enforcement will continue to be stepped up. This effort started two summer ago, in answer to the increased complaints. This is an easy equation -- reduce the complaints and law enforcement can focus elsewhere. I, for one, am in favor of regular law enforcement patrols. The bottom-feeding fraction of our hobby has wrecked the fun for the majority of us too many times. Random gunfire, public drunkenness, hard drug use, and drunk driving are bad enough... trailblazing and blatant resource destruction are worse. Let's face it, we CAN'T control our own -- we can help, but we need law enforcement to help with the most egregious violations.

Education -- yeah, that's the biggest thing we need to work on, but we need support from law enforcement -- and a well-marked trail.

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Old 06-03-2002, 06:11 PM   #18 (permalink)
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We need signs

Folks, trail signs are coming. I think most of you know that.
The Rubicon is an unmaintained county road, with a USFS Forest Road designation on part of it. But signs are coming -- as are potties. Our job is to make sure we have a say in how, when, what , who, etc.
Yes, there'll be kiosks (most of you agreed that was a good idea).
Yes, there'll be trail signs of some sort -- that's where we continue to need your help. Reflective markers, signs embedded in stone (like the POR one), unobtrusive but helpful signs, these are all good ideas. That's really what we need to focus on.
Fines? Hmmm. We haven't thought that far yet.
Oh, and yes, there'll be more law enforcement as time goes on. It's inevitable. But I think we'll be able to keep our trail open with these improvements, if you will.
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Old 06-04-2002, 08:21 AM   #19 (permalink)
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By the way, if anyone is interested in seeing the web site of my supporters, the BlueRibbon Coalition, please visit:
www.sharetrails.org

thanks, Del
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Old 06-04-2002, 10:45 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I think the reflectors would be an awesome idea. they would serve the same purpose as the painted markers in moab except both day and night. Plus they are quite unobtrusive and freakin hard to remove. I doubt people would try to steal em anyways if they were the same as the ones in front of their house.

I think the main problem is not that people cant see where the trail is, its that some people seem to ignore that. Having markers on the trail will give those a little reminder to stay on trail. kindof guilt em into treading lightly. Some will still ignore them, but it will help.

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Old 06-05-2002, 08:23 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Eldorado County is going to survey their whole side of the trail. Markers will be coming; we'll help them decide what kind. Just keep them ideas coming.
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