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Old 01-21-2009, 08:56 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Has FS LEO threatened to arrest you?

Our group is currently going through the federal court process regarding a ticket by officer Ken. One of the many aspects of our defense is establishing the behavior of this particular officer.

When officer Ken wrote us our ticket, he was very hostile and even threatened to take all four of us to jail. I was shocked at his behavior since the ticket was over a minor infraction.

If Ken treated you in a similar manner please pm me.
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Old 01-22-2009, 07:56 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Our group is currently going through the federal court process regarding a ticket by officer Ken. One of the many aspects of our defense is establishing the behavior of this particular officer.

When officer Ken wrote us our ticket, he was very hostile and even threatened to take all four of us to jail. I was shocked at his behavior since the ticket was over a minor infraction.

If Ken treated you in a similar manner please pm me.
This is nothing new, search this forum and you will find plenty of wonderful storys of yours truly!
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:16 AM   #3 (permalink)
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there was a recent class action lawsuit filed against the San Jose PD for being too agressive with Drunken in Public and other types of arrest related to basic conduct where in many cases arrests were made for non-arrestable offenses. It looks like it is going to cost the city of San Jose a lot of money, like in the millions.

This current approach by the FS LEO's is sounding like it can fall in the bucket of excessive enforcement and unnecesssary use of an arrest or threatening the arrest - a healthy cas of 'abuse of power'. The best approach is to bring a well founded class action against the US Forest Service and make them face the music by putting a nice memorable dent in their pocket book. Each encounter should be well documented and be witnessed. Then present the case.

From my readings regarding the topic there will be plenty of cases of excessive enforcement and abuse of power / threatening behavior. They won't really have a reason to stop or change their approach until they see the cost of their new approach even just by dealing with the paper trail. I think it is time to find an attorney who enjoys wheeling the Rubicon trail and also getting local media involved should get the guys back at the office sweating.

This is the season of going after abusive uniformed behavior. Bottom line, when was the last time the CHP was threatening an arrest during a speeding ticket or a broken tail lamp warning. If anyone gets taken to jail for not having mud flaps they need to stop wasting time and file a law suit.

Nothing looks worse in the eyes of your chief than getting slapped with lawsuits as a result of law enforcement. It does not make for a very stable career, whether it's the city or the forest. It's the only way these guys learn sometimes. They have tunnel vision and they feel invincible behind the uniform and they assume nobody will do anything.

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Old 01-22-2009, 11:58 AM   #4 (permalink)
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The best approach is to bring a well founded class action against the county's Forest Service Department...
Not disagreeing with your approach here, but I want to make a correction so everybody is clear as to who we are dealing with. Officer Ken Marcus is a United States Forest Service Law Enforcement Officer, NOT an employee of EL Dorado County. I have been following this closely and have never heard of an issue like this with any of the El Dorado County Sherrif's deputies.

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Bottom line, when was the last time the meter maid was threatening an arrest.
Another point of clarification...mudflaps are not meter maid stuff (city or county ordinance), they are California Vehicle Code (state law). Officer Marcus is not a meter maid, he is a Law Enforcement Officer (LEO) of the USFS, a federal agency. His jurisdiction and powers of arrest are the same as those of say, an FBI agent. The reason I want to make that distinction is that he needs to be held to a high standard...he's not a badge heavy meter maid pushing his weight around, he is a federal officer who appears to be advancing an agenda under color of authority, a MUCH more serious matter.

Don't want to start a big debate, just want everyone to undestand the distinction.
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Old 01-22-2009, 12:27 PM   #5 (permalink)
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John, I agree with you, but this guy is writing tickets on Hwy 50 and around the Pollock Pines area now, The whole I'm going to arrest you thing is not new with him. He is RUDE and very combative.
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Old 01-22-2009, 12:42 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I think I made the needed corrections let me know if it is any better.
In the meantime this was an interesting link.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/strategicpriorities/

http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/about/pa-staff.html

I say begin by calling (or writing letter to) their public affairs office regarding each incident in detail attaching any violations and witness accounts and take it from there. In cases like this a written and signed letter with contact information is probably better because it will have to be filed and archived and followed up on. The more letters they receive the more they will want to investigate what special agent Marcus is up to in Region 5 and how he is conducting business.

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Old 01-22-2009, 12:43 PM   #7 (permalink)
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John, I agree with you, but this guy is writing tickets on Hwy 50 and around the Pollock Pines area now, The whole I'm going to arrest you thing is not new with him. He is RUDE and very combative.
I hear you loud and clear and I am NOT saying that the issue shouldn't be pursued or that Offcier Marcus is in the right here. I just wanted to clarify that he is the real deal, a federal officer, and that we shouldn't confuse his actions with those of an officer from a completely different agency (El Dorado County Sheriffs Office).
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Old 01-22-2009, 12:45 PM   #8 (permalink)
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He cannot threaten an arrest during a routine vehicle code stop, unless there are other factors that I am not aware. I think I added too much banter and icing. I know he is not a meter maid, I can correct that. It is clear that there is an abuse of power situation in this case whether it's HWY50 or Icehouse Road. There will be no change to that unless the same legal process they are using to issue tickets is used to keep them in line. I have never been warned to get arrested during the issuing of speeding tickets or other tickets. Normally officers are very nice about handing out these violations because they know they got you so there is no arguing about it. They either give you a ticket or a warning and they move on. This guy is threatening and combative. Take the feds to court and see how quickly they re assign him. Until legal action is taken by and individual or a group of individuals, there is no motivation to change anything.

I agree with you, just wanted those clarifications to be made...
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Old 01-22-2009, 01:06 PM   #9 (permalink)
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oh wow I was editing a new post - while you were responding to the old post. LOL. In any case I think a clear and active line of communication and sharing just the facts with the right people in the forest service ranks will go a long way and will probably result in a mellowing trend.
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Old 01-22-2009, 01:30 PM   #10 (permalink)
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interesting the forest service video link did not include vehicles in the sample of outdoor activities...
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Old 01-22-2009, 07:03 PM   #11 (permalink)
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. . . I have been following this closely and have never heard of an issue like this with any of the El Dorado County Sherrif's deputies . . .
There was at least one similar situation with a local deputy. It very nearly ended tragically but the deputy in question was transferred to a position with little or no public contact.
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Old 01-23-2009, 06:21 PM   #12 (permalink)
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True. Historically, things have been tough on overzealous officers on the divide...nuff said.
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Old 01-25-2009, 08:52 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Be careful guys there is no winning if you combat a combatitive officer in the end we will all lose. Suck it up report him and answer yes sir in the meantime. Always remember this if you didn't do anything wrong then he would have no reason to talk to you. OBEY THE LAW IN THE FIRST PLACE AND THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED NOW ISN'T IT
I have alway dealt with Officer Steve Klang. Real nice guy he and his partner are out there all the time. That doesn't mean he doesn't do his job and he's all about business and his job. He's always been civil but very to the point that there are no special favors when it comes to the law. Don't give these guys any crap they have enough to deal with all the little young yahoos. Put the beer down it can wait until the campsite.
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Old 01-25-2009, 08:58 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Steve would NEVER act the way this guy does...we understand the difference.

Another point of clarification...no one in this thread is threatening an officer with harm in any way shape or form. We just want to be treated in an appropriate manner while we get our tickets, the way Steve would treat us.
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Old 01-25-2009, 10:35 AM   #15 (permalink)
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OBEY THE LAW IN THE FIRST PLACE AND THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED NOW ISN'T IT
ok next time your on the con make sure to have your mud flaps on, and a front license plate.


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Old 01-25-2009, 10:38 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Our first encounter with Ken was not very pleasant. We were given tickets that we deserved on out way to a clean up, we were also given a warning. Since we have fixed what needed to be fixed we have run into him several times... All times have been pleasant. He may have been a bit overzealous at first, but he's getting to know the area, and the people that frequent the trails. He is a law enforcement officer, and he is here to enforce the law.
We know he doesn't like seeing unregistered vehicles, resource damage, and obvious vehicle code violations. But really

Who has he ticketed lately? and what for?
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Old 01-25-2009, 10:46 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Since we have fixed what needed to be fixed we have run into him several times... All times have been pleasant. He may have been a bit overzealous at first, but he's getting to know the area, and the people that frequent the trails.
That's good to hear, Lisa, hope it is a sign of things to come with him.
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:04 PM   #18 (permalink)
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State the facts here

and only the facts. Leave out the emotion. Be assured that any lawsuit will use the words written in these posts. Do not later contradict what you have already written.

Additionally I can almost guarantee those in question read, print and save these posts.

And having met and spoken to certain LEO's there are two sides to every story.

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Old 01-26-2009, 01:56 PM   #19 (permalink)
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What a lot of people fail to understand is the Rubicon trail is a valid El Dorado county road. As such all California vehicle code laws apply including equipment requirments. That includes vehicle registration, insurance, blinkers, stop lights and oh yeah, no drinking and driving. Believe it or not but a trail only rig is not supposed to be on the Rubicon. Now it has been my experience the LEO's on the Rubicon have been very friendly and have over looked a LOT of violations and behavior. Obey the rules and if you feel you have been wronged then take the LEO to court. The trail is no the place to argue your point, you will lose. Be police and respeful and things will go alot better for everyone.
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Old 01-26-2009, 02:16 PM   #20 (permalink)
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What a lot of people fail to understand is the Rubicon trail is a valid El Dorado county road.
Rubicon is a non-maintained road in El Dorado County.

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As such all California vehicle code laws apply including equipment requirments.
This is not correct. Once you are off the paved road or the dual-designated areas, the Rubicon is a county road where OHV travel is permitted.

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That includes vehicle registration, insurance, blinkers, stop lights and oh yeah, no drinking and driving.
In order - yes, not necessarily, not necessarily, sort of, and yes. Valid registration is required, but insurance is only required if the tag requires it (i.e. street-licensed vehicles need proof of insurance, but valid OHV-registered vehicles do not). If OHV registered, a center-mounted stoplight is just about the only lighting requiremen. As for driving under the influence, this applies to registered vehicles of any sort and includes bicycles and boats. I wouldn't be surprised if it was illegal to ride a horse drunk...

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Now it has been my experience the LEO's on the Rubicon have been very friendly and have over looked a LOT of violations and behavior. Obey the rules and if you feel you have been wronged then take the LEO to court. The trail is no the place to argue your point, you will lose. Be police and respeful and things will go alot better for everyone.
I agree with the rest of this -- well said!

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Old 01-26-2009, 04:27 PM   #21 (permalink)
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We can beat this poor horse till we are all blue, just like the last thread about our contact with officer Marcus. This is the bottom line, have all the your ducks in a row when going to any trail!! The only reason this has been a hot topic is this one particular leo is going to take on the fourwheel drive community head on, He has made the remarks that he does not like a certain group that was holding a clean up on the trail that weekend. I have heard the famous I will arrest you statement from a number of his customers. He is just an overacheiver in my book, MAKE SURE YOUR LEAGLE BEAGLESMILE AND SAY YES SIR !~ and go on your marry way. He is not going anywhere soon soooooo lets beat'em with kindness!
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Old 01-27-2009, 02:51 PM   #22 (permalink)
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remember a driver may be arrested for nearly any violation-- receiving a citation is a 'courtesy' and is only an acknowledgement of receipt thereof and a promise to appear at the date/time, unless paid or otherwise a new date negotiated. Signing for the citation is in no way an admission of guilt. Don't waste ur time arguing w/ an officer-- if the ticket book is out, then ur had. (altho it is possible to respectfully request a formal warning) Exercise ur rights and go see the judge. Refuse to sign for the citation = arrest and it happens all the time. Many LEOS wear a wire, so don;t say anything you don't want the judge and US Atty (or DA) to hear. On the other hand, i suggest avoiding the 'we're taping you right now officer' approach-- nothing wrong w/ discreetly hitting record on ur video camera to catch the audio. that said, coperation is key to avoiding further and deeper problems. being 100% legal in ur mind may not be the truth. Many folks dig a deeper legal hole w/ their mouths and actions; don;t fail the jerk test. LEO taunts are a test to guage ur reaction. Save it for the judge. If its a bogus citation the US Attorney will see that and maybe lean down on the over zealous officer(s). Don;t just pay bogus citations, use ur day n court. If ur in the wrong, then suck it up and modify ur circumstances to become legal.

off soapbox.

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Old 01-27-2009, 03:15 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Renolaw,
I assume you are Reno PD or a Washoe County sheriff.
and if so what is the law on running a Front Plate in Nevada?
I've been told that NV does not require a front plate.

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Old 01-27-2009, 03:40 PM   #24 (permalink)
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a front plate is required if ur vehicle has an OEM place for it to attach. NV law was changed couple years back. Will fwd NRS section if interested. Despite the fact you may be legally exempt from a front plate, it still = probable cause (aka PC) for you to be stopped. i'm on the other side of the bar


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Old 01-27-2009, 03:56 PM   #25 (permalink)
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