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Old 12-28-2014, 04:03 PM   #51 (permalink)
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I predict it will happen, then again, I predicted that when the purchase was announced. I really haven't wavered from that, just surprised and frustrated it still has not happened.
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Old 12-29-2014, 08:34 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Quit playing "nice"...

RTF has already taken this advice.
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Old 12-29-2014, 12:41 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Old 01-02-2015, 08:31 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Old 01-28-2015, 02:09 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Who is holding up this process? As a user I d like to get down there. Someone must be holding this up. It shouldn't be this hard.
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Old 01-28-2015, 06:06 PM   #56 (permalink)
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My wife and I were just talking about this.
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Old 01-28-2015, 07:15 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Who is holding up this process? As a user I d like to get down there. Someone must be holding this up. It shouldn't be this hard.
No Easement currently exists and the "land owners" of said property are unwilling to negotiate a reasonable fee for any recorded easements into rtf property. This all should have been "pre-negotiated" prior to RTF purchasing it. RTP plain and simple does not want people on their property or anywhere near it. They will go to any means necessary to make sure "access is denied". . .
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Old 01-28-2015, 07:53 PM   #58 (permalink)
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So your saying fourwheelers are keeping fourwheelers from having access? I've met most of the RTP folks. Good people. Just like any group probably just a couple bad apples, with agendas, are gumming up the works.
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:37 AM   #59 (permalink)
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No Easement currently exists and the "land owners" of said property are unwilling to negotiate a reasonable fee for any recorded easements into rtf property. This all should have been "pre-negotiated" prior to RTF purchasing it. RTP plain and simple does not want people on their property or anywhere near it. They will go to any means necessary to make sure "access is denied". . .
Maybe some transparency would help a bit...

You appear to have displayed as much knowledge as anyone in public to date related to this issue. Anyone, with any interest in the trail, through campfire rumor, probably knows what bagman has posted (though some may disagree with his opinions of RTP).

John's deleted post from last night is interesting.

You state RTP owners are unwilling to negotiate a reasonable fee, what does your knowledge base yield to you as reasonable?

To be clear, as a property owner, I would not be excited about the impacts of this type or amount of traffic, along with the unlimited liability exposure, across land that I worked and paid for. Fourwheeler, or not, the general public is not entitled to that gratuity.

As you have gracefully touched upon, and given the lack of public disclosure as to the development plans for this property, errors were made in closing on that property without access; okay, that is in the rearview now. What RTF should have is an honest discussion about whether they had any business in the first place spending the public's trust at 6/7 times cashflow given the huge unknow operational burden this property will place on their corp. for years to come. If I am off on the numbers it may be because they haven't posted a budget here for sometime.

I highly doubt that RTF would prevail in court without a complete development plan, and even then, sketchy at best (not to mention expensive). And as the landowner, I wouldn't say yes at any price until I saw one. This isn't just an issue about a simple driveway to a private residence.

Four years later, the laughing gas long depleted, RTF should seek an alternative to ownership and return to their humble yet valuable core work on the trail. That, I could, and would support.

And a simple, yet telling reminder for those who ignore history, $1000 Hill was closed off by RTP due to liability concerns. That was about 50 feet of trail.

If I was a property owner in the area, I would be thinking about what a piece of property like this is really worth now, given the access issues.

Nice guys? Has nothing to do with personalities.
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Old 01-29-2015, 11:11 AM   #60 (permalink)
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As per usual, the foundation is doing a better job than you give credit for Craig
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Old 01-29-2015, 12:25 PM   #61 (permalink)
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As per usual, the foundation is doing a better job than you give credit for Craig
I'm your Huckleberry.

I had a feeling you would pick my commits exclusively for you "as per usual" vague victim response.

In anticipation of the pushback, I will pose a couple of questions that have gone unanswered to date regarding the access issue. Mainly, these questions focus on Scott Johnson’s, John Arenz’s and the seller’s involvement in this land deal. It is not my intention to pick on Scott and John, but their personal histories and involvement, as well as professional involvement with seller begs the questions.

Earlier in the thread, John gave Scott special recognition for his involvement in the process to purchase the property from the seller. As most know, though some may not, John is both VP and Director of the Rubicon Trail Foundation(RTF) and a landowning member of Rubicon Trail Partnership (RTP).

As previously stated, it has been reported, and for the most part acquiesced, by both Scott and John in this thread, that efforts to gain permanent titled access to the property has been thwarted by RTP.

So, the questions that I, and I can be reasonably certain many others would like to know:

were there pre-sale verbal discussions between Scott or any other representative of RTF, or their agents with the seller regarding the lack of legal access to the property;

were there any written seller disclosures related to the lack of legal access to the property;

assuming that John has partner access to the other RTP landowners through his association in the same, did John conduct a pre-sale investigation into the other RTP owner’s positions as to the granting of legal public or private access to the property;

did John, as a Director of RTF give caution to the RTF Board of Directors as to the lack of access to the property, and/or the potential for RTP to not be cozy to a deal;

do detailed RTF meeting minutes exist that reflect a discussion of any pre-sale guarantees, verbal or otherwise, related to handling the access issue post-sale;

and finally, did RTF hire professional counsel of some form to determine the actually market value of this piece of property, or the potential landmines and legal remedies related to taking on the access risk post-sale?

As many on here know full well, I have questioned the charter of RTF for sometime regarding the backgrounds and foregrounds of RTF Directors. The mere presence of conflicts serves to deteriorate the hard earned equity in a volunteer organization.

Given the many hours of volunteerism, donations, raffle prizes, etc.., involved in the purchase of this property, RTF need to straighten this mess out in public, and clearly state how they intend to move forward with corporate governance that protects the trust that a successful 501c3 must maintain with the public.
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Old 01-29-2015, 02:11 PM   #62 (permalink)
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I will only comment on John.....if you believe or don't.....that's up to anyone.


The truth is...John is an awesome guardian of the Rubicon...The hours he has spent on behalf of RTF, long before he ever became a partner of RTP is unquestioned and easily researched.
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Old 01-29-2015, 02:16 PM   #63 (permalink)
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kinda yes to all of it Craig. This wasn't gone in to lightly, the Board did all its due diligence as would be expected. The minutes of the public meetings would demonstrate this.

Certainly even you could agree that property purchase negotiations, legal proceedings and the like would never be discussed in public. it's likely that any announcement will happen after actions have been finalised. wouldn't you agree??
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Old 01-29-2015, 07:33 PM   #64 (permalink)
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The truth is...John is an awesome guardian of the Rubicon...The hours he has spent on behalf of RTF, long before he ever became a partner of RTP is unquestioned and easily researched.
Agreed. One of the good guys for sure.


Moving on I can see all valuable work RTF has done.

As far as transparency Craig. It's not hard to find out what's going on with RTF. I kind of believe from your numerous posts that your personality may be what is blocking your vision.

I am just an trail user that wants to explore something new on the trail. Also want to help develop a new area for other trail users to enjoy. Give back to the trail that has been such a big part of my life.
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Old 01-30-2015, 09:14 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Agreed. One of the good guys for sure.
Thanks for the kind words...

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I am just an trail user that wants to explore something new on the trail. Also want to help develop a new area for other trail users to enjoy. Give back to the trail that has been such a big part of my life.
Respect. THIS is what the whole thing is about.
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Old 02-01-2015, 11:57 AM   #66 (permalink)
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So, Cjcraig. You are the problem or helping with the solution?
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Old 03-23-2015, 07:28 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Since there is nothing new here. Bring this to the top of the page. Summer is around the corner who's holding up this process
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Old 03-23-2015, 07:31 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Oh no, your gonna set Craig off again LOL
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Old 03-23-2015, 08:05 PM   #69 (permalink)
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^You're right I just wanted to see smoke come from Craig's ears again, and hear some crazy theory
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Old 03-25-2015, 02:53 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Hopefully everything gets settled with the easement, and maybe Craig can be the first to break trail on the property ��.
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Old 05-14-2015, 02:48 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Old 05-28-2015, 02:53 AM   #72 (permalink)
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I predict it will happen, then again, I predicted that when the purchase was announced. I really haven't wavered from that, just surprised and frustrated it still has not happened.

So, the key word here is "will". I hope it is soon.
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Old 06-02-2015, 11:19 AM   #73 (permalink)
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6 months later and still no answers from RTF... I'm going to keep this alive for the mere fact that nothing has been answered yet. Name calling and talking about peoples feelings is irrelevant to the facts.

I guess what frustrates many people is this was purchased Dec of 2010, nearly 5 yrs ago. These details were not mitigated with the Smiths and specifically RTP upfront during the purchase process. The board HAD to have known this property would have been an issue with access? The property is Land locked from TNF and ENF and the only property that would have the right to allow access is RTP. The govt. sure as hell would never allow a public nor private easement without extensive, expensive plans approved, and even then....

Is the $250k private loan from Mark Smith paid off?

Is this a balloon payment that is due and payable soon?

Most private type notes are carried by a seller for 5 yrs? If so, has RTF secured alternative financing? Do they have the funds to pay off the amount due?

Is there a master plan drafted showing the specific future use of the property? Or was this a few people within RTF that simply wanted a pet project to allow specific "friends" private property to recreate on if the Rubicon was impacted much more than it was, all the while using public donation $$$?

Just seems to me a whole lot of tacos were sold with the guarantee that property was being secured for the very same users whom were donating to the organization. 5 yrs later, doesn't seem like anything has happened...

I for one am probably one of the BIGGEST advocates of private property rights. I don't blame RTP for not wanting More users, More problems, More people thinking now its private property and they can do what ever the hell they want... Hell, If I owned property in that area I would try and keep people out too that were not respecting it...
What I don't agree with are the tactics that have been used for the last 10 yrs to promote one small groups agenda...
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Old 06-02-2015, 11:43 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Why all the negative.

I'm sure rtf has been working on it.
this property is a long range plan to keep the trail open. Basically making all trail users property owners. It's not really about a new camping spot. plus it's been open for camping for years, just no vehicle easement.

Reality check it will be maybe 5 more years until an easement is created
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Old 06-02-2015, 07:09 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Chill brother.
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