Help plan my shop build (W. Washington)

[CWToyota]

I'm about 6 months away from heading back to the USA and starting a shop build. I have some land in Kitsap County, WA with a well, a septic & power. Also, I'll have a clear, flat place to build.

What I want is a steel building 80' x 40' x 16' with 3 roll up 14' doors and 2 standard sized walk-in doors. I would like to hire out the job for a complete structure including forms and concrete work. I think I prefer a steel framed building. Your input/experience on steel vs wood/pole construction would be appreciated.

When the builders are done, I'll frame up a 16' x 40' two level apartment/office and install the pipes, wires, etc myself. This will be my home and my work area.


I'd be happy to have some recommendations of reliable builders in the area who do quality work.

Also, from you guys who have done similar builds, what should I be looking out for? Problems you've encountered with the builders? Subcontractors? Permitting and the county?

This is my first construction project, it is likely to be the place I live and work for many years, perhaps the rest of them. I would like to get it right the first time around.

What's the ballpark cost for a project like this?
Don't give me that "if you have to ask..." shit either.

[offroad_joe]

If you want 8' ceilings you will need to go taller then 16'. I went 18' eves to get just shy of 8' finished if I build inside. Don't forget to lay your plumbing under the foundation before you pour. Your looking at 75 to 100k depending on how you want it finished and how much work you want to do.

[IdahoJoe]

I'm in Mason County so not far away. I'm still working on my 42x60x14 Miracle Truss building. I like the idea of not burying wood in the ground in our rainforest climate. Web Steel builds a similar building and is worth checking out. A buddy of mine has a 40x80x14 Web Steel building and is happy with it.

I had Durbin Resources (Dennis) do my dirt work. Best money I've spent. He was busy then (2007) so it was tough to get on his schedule and I waited a while. I heard he had to sell some equipment so I'm not sure if he is working for someone else or what.

I had Silverdale plumbing do my underslab plumbing. I wasn't willing to risk my first time work since fixing it would be so hard. Not the cheapest but they do good work, were great with estimates and quick.

Precision Concrete out of Port Orchard did my flatwork. Good job but again not the cheapest. I'm not sure I didn't pay 25% too much with them, but I got a good slab.

Fabcon out of Gig Harbor put up my building shell. I think they are out of business or at least closed down their office. They did a good job and I'd hire them again.

Olympic Wiring upgraded the meter to my house and added the underground feed and panel in the shop. Electricians are damn expensive for what they do but they were the most competitive in the area.

I'm crawling along finishing the inside very similar to what you describe. I've framed, wired, plumbed and am working on the finish work for the 16x42 loft with machine room underneath.

If you want any phone numbers PM me and I'll dig them up.

[CWToyota]

Originally Posted by offroad_joe

If you want 8' ceilings you will need to go taller then 16'. I went 18' eves to get just shy of 8' finished if I build inside. Don't forget to lay your plumbing under the foundation before you pour. Your looking at 75 to 100k depending on how you want it finished and how much work you want to do.

Thanks for the suggestions / info. Sounds like I was expecting the right price range. I want to hire out the concrete and the steel structure, insulating, gutters, etc. The living area; framing, wiring, plumming and finishing I'll do myself.

Regarding the ceiling heights, I don't know what the standard is, 7', 7.5' 8'...?
Also, I didn't give much thought to the thickness of ceiling/floor joists and what code and standards require yet. Thanks for that suggestion, I think I'll plan for an 18 foot structure just to be on the safe side.

I've thought about the plumbing a bit while laying things out. Bathroom will be directly below the kitchen. So washer, dryer, water heater and shop-sink in the bathroom. This way, 90% of my plumbing will be in one corner of the shop.

I have a big CNC mill, and a lathe is on my short list so I want an indoor garden hose spigot nearby. I'll plumb for a dishwasher (parts cleaner) and I need two outdoor spigots for hosing stuff off.

[CWToyota]

Originally Posted by IdahoJoe

I'm in Mason County so not far away. I'm still working on my 42x60x14 Miracle Truss building. I like the idea of not burying wood in the ground in our rainforest climate. ...

Our climate and losing my home to a fire in 2010 are the main reasons I want steel.

Dirt work will probably go to one my friends who do that sort of thing. I know how to avoid the pitfalls that often accompany a friend to friend business deal.

I'll add Precision Concrete to my list when I start looking for quotes. I want a quality slab a lot more than I want to hire the cheapest guy in town.

I searched for Fabcon and came up with a number... Their website seems to be down, but I'll try the phone. I sent a couple of other builders some e-mails asking for info/quote based on my specs.

What's the process like with permitting? How do you submit plans for a building if you haven't bought one yet? I haven't done any of this shit before. Where do you start?

I stopped by the County building in June and found out that I have to build this thing as a "Replacement Home". They won't let me build an "Accessory Structure" like a shop without a home on the land. So I asked if the shop would qualify as a home if I planned to build an apartment inside and live there. They said it would work and that I should submit a site plan.


So now I have downloaded a few things from the Kitsap County planning/building website including some storwater run-off rules which don't seem to apply because i'm well under their 7000 sq/ft "disturbed area" cut-off.

I also downloaded their sample site plan. I'll probably work something up soon and send it to them to get some feedback.

Hopefully I can get through this without stepping on my own dick and with some of my sanity left intact.

[IdahoJoe]

Originally Posted by CWToyota

...I'll add Precision Concrete to my list when I start looking for quotes. I want a quality slab a lot more than I want to hire the cheapest guy in town.

That's how I felt too. The couple or few grand here and there you save or spend are small potatoes when compared to having to redo something or having to live with a crappy job for the next 20 or so years...

Originally Posted by CWToyota

I searched for Fabcon and came up with a number... Their website seems to be down, but I'll try the phone. I sent a couple of other builders some e-mails asking for info/quote based on my specs.

I looked for them more after I posted and found references to "complete fabrication". I didn't see a license number with the state so keep that in mind...

Originally Posted by CWToyota

What's the process like with permitting? How do you submit plans for a building if you haven't bought one yet? I haven't done any of this shit before. Where do you start?

Looking back now, I could have majorly screwed myself here. I bought my building before I did anything else. It was one that hadn't been put up by the original buyer. He gave it to his son in law after getting injured and the son in law sold it to me when he moved out of the area. I had to get the plans redone by Miracle Truss because they were out of date. I also got foundation plans redone with some additions. The plans alone were $2600.

Next I paid the county ($300) to do an inspection of where I could build on my property since I have a "salmon stream" (a dry creek bed from April to November). I got all the records from the county on my property and totally redid the site plan. The one they had in my file looked like a back of a napkin sketch and was totally wrong.

I submitted both the building and foundation plans along with my site plan to the county. They took about a month looking at them (or getting through the pile to get down to them). I had to get my septic tank inspected because I was hooking into it with a bathroom in the shop and the fire marshall came out and told me can't park near my shop so they can turn a fire truck around (umm, ok). The called and said they were approved, I scratched out another check and picked them up. Started dirt work about a month later.

I'm not sure how you would get plans to submit without buying the building. I realize now I took a risk buying the building kit without have an approved permit. I don't know what I would have done if I got turned down some how...

Originally Posted by CWToyota

I stopped by the County building in June and found out that I have to build this thing as a "Replacement Home". They won't let me build an "Accessory Structure" like a shop without a home on the land. So I asked if the shop would qualify as a home if I planned to build an apartment inside and live there. They said it would work and that I should submit a site plan.

If you plan on building the shop and living in it for a while and then building a house, this could be a problem. I don't know if they would allow two "homes" to be on the property under county rules. There are also rules about raising the living area floor above the shop/garage floor you need to look into if this is a "house".

Originally Posted by CWToyota

So now I have downloaded a few things from the Kitsap County planning/building website including some storwater run-off rules which don't seem to apply because i'm well under their 7000 sq/ft "disturbed area" cut-off....

That crap scares me. A friend of mine has built several light commercial buildings around Silverdale. These things are not much bigger than my shop. One of them took a $20k runoff retention culvert under the parking lot. I'm sure they will let you know with your site plan. I don't know how they figure your "disturbed area" but I think it includes driveways, lawns etc. I've heard horror stories.

I'd get a site plan together and try to set up a meeting with a plan/permit review person. Explain exactly what you are trying to do and get their take on it. Even if they charged you a couple hundred bucks for some meeting time, it would be worth it.

[CWToyota]

Looking back now, I could have majorly screwed myself here. I bought my building before I did anything else.

A little quick web browsing tells me a basic will be over $20K. When I add upgrades, doors, insulation, etc it's going to be up there. I can't fork out that kind of cash and be told no. It looks like at least some of the steel companies will sell plans on their own. Still, I don't want to gamble 2 or 3 grand until the county at least gives me the nod on the size/style of the building.

I just can't believe this is the way they expect people to do these projects.

That crap scares me. A friend of mine has built several light commercial buildings around Silverdale. These things are not much bigger than my shop. One of them took a $20k runoff retention culvert under the parking lot. I'm sure they will let you know with your site plan. I don't know how they figure your "disturbed area" but I think it includes driveways, lawns etc. I've heard horror stories.

Nothing scares me like bureaucrats and their seemingly arbitrary rules.

I thought about the lawn, driveway, etc. The pamphlet says 7000 sq/ft of changes. There's an existing 70' mobile home, a lawn, and a flat driveway area that probably equals about 7000-8000 sq/ft. I don't actually have to change the grade or anything, so according to their literature, I should be ok. My biggest concern is that I'm on lakefront and I also have a stream down in the woods. I am set back around 175 feet from the lake, and it's an existing site, so I'll play "Flexible Optimist" on that issue for now. It will be up to their interpretation, so I'll label everything clearly as "EXISTING FLAT DRIVEWAY", "EXISTING FLAT LAWN", "LOCATION OF EXISTING HOME" etc.

I'd get a site plan together and try to set up a meeting with a plan/permit review person. Explain exactly what you are trying to do and get their take on it. Even if they charged you a couple hundred bucks for some meeting time, it would be worth it.

I'm starting a site plan now. I'm in Afghanistan until June, but on my R&R last July I shot a bunch of photos, took down some measurements, etc.

My brother did some research at the county and got me the permit documents for the septic system. It looks like your napkin sketch too. I drew it up on the computer and I'll be using that along with the data I collected and google earth to create my site plan.

I'll have to wait until June/July to get a meeting. I sent along an e-mail to the planning people at the county today asking some questions about their process.

I plan to schedule a meeting well ahead of time. With any luck, the week I go home I'll be sitting down with them. I'm sure you're right about paying for the time, a couple hundred bucks now could save me thousands later.