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Old 04-09-2012, 07:27 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Question on shop electricity

Disclaimer: I am typing on an ipad and it sux, please excuse punctuation and spelling. Also I know jack about electricity!

I am building a shop. See my shop build thread a few posts down. I have a new home and when it was built I knew the shop would eventually get bulit.

So I had the electrician set me up for power in my shop. He set up a breaker in the main house electric panel that is only for the shop then he ran a wire through the attic to the side of the house that the shop is on.

The wire is roughly 60 feet long and then I will have anothr 100 feet to run to my shop. Does that make sense?

Here's the question/ problem... My electrician and I went round and round about the size of breaker and wire required. In the end I took his word and went with his suggestion.

So I got a 60 amp breaker and 6 gauge wire. Now I am worried it won't be enough. My shop will have lights( of course), fans, the smallest 220 welder lincoln makes, a small 220, plasma cutter, a 220 air compressor, chop saw, grinders, etc.

No central heat or air.


What says the PBB? Too small breaker? Too small gauge wire? Just right? Might fry bacon but not cut metal?
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:37 PM   #2 (permalink)
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your limit will be whatever breaker he put in your main box for the shop. you won't be able to run any more than that. 60 amp is kind of small to run a shop off of though.
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:39 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Definitely too small.
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:48 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HalfFastFord View Post
your limit will be whatever breaker he put in your main box for the shop. you won't be able to run any more than that. 60 amp is kind of small to run a shop off of though.
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Definitely too small.
Okay, is it possible to change the breaker to 100 amps? I imagine it is. What about the 6 gauge wire run over roughly 200 feet?
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Definitely too small.
I appreciate the comment. Care to elaborate? And recommend a solution?
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:50 PM   #6 (permalink)
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How big is the shop?

I think it is fine.

You won't run the welder, chop saw, and plasma at the same time . You can only use one at a time.

At MOST, you are using lights, air compressor, shop fridge and ONE piece of fab equipment.

You have plenty of power.
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:54 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Definitely too small.
I don't have near that much power in my garage, and I run all the equipment he listed and have NEVER had an issue.
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:58 PM   #8 (permalink)
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How big is the shop?

I think it is fine.

You won't run the welder, chop saw, and plasma at the same time . You can only use one at a time.

At MOST, you are using lights, air compressor, shop fridge and ONE piece of fab equipment.

You have plenty of power.
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I don't have near that much power in my garage, and I run all the equipment he listed and have NEVER had an issue.

See its hard to sift the PBB tradition of always "go the biggest possible or you're a pussy" ( i.e 60's damnit!, no rockwells!, no 5 tons!) and reality.

I have zero electricity knowledge. So I am at the mercy of anonymous internet advice.

Edit: Does the distance (150-200ft) and wire size (6 gauge copper) give anyone pause?
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:08 PM   #9 (permalink)
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How big is the shop?

I think it is fine.

You won't run the welder, chop saw, and plasma at the same time . You can only use one at a time.

At MOST, you are using lights, air compressor, shop fridge and ONE piece of fab equipment.

You have plenty of power.
I would agree, a lot of people think they need more then they really do, I've seen a lot of older houses with 60 amp service with electric ranges, dryers, water heaters and well in addition to all the lighting load, not a big deal.


What I would do is use a 100 amp panel in the shop, mostly for the extra spaces, I would feed that with wire rated for 100 amps run in conduit back to the house where I would tie on to the number 6 wire protected by the 60 amp breaker. This way if you find you do need more power you will only have to replace the number 6 in the house and the breaker.

If you don't want to do this at least oversize the conduit so larger wire could be pulled in the future.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:09 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I appreciate the comment. Care to elaborate? And recommend a solution?
The easiest solution is probably going to be pulling another circuit.

If I am picturing this right, you have a small disconnect outside (fed from a 60 amp double pole breaker in your house) you are planning on pulling out of the disconnect to your shop.

You TYPICALLy can't pull 100 amps on # 6, but welders are figured at a different load than a regular circuit ( due to duty cycle and shit).

If you feel that you have to have 100 amp service, you are going to pull out all that expensive #6 and put in bigger wire. ( and depending on the disconnect, you may have to swap that out too).

If 100 amps is the goal, pull another 40 amp circuit.

There is no telling if your breaker box will even support a 100 amp breaker.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:11 PM   #11 (permalink)
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At my house, we have a 60 amp sub-panel in the shop about the same distance. It's a three bay shop with all the equipment you listed and then some. As Grumpy said, you're not running all that stuff at once. I'm only an Apprentice Electrician, but what I've seen done, that would be plenty. That is unless you got all your buddies in there throwin down the fabrication skills.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:18 PM   #12 (permalink)
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The easiest solution is probably going to be pulling another circuit.

If 100 amps is the goal, pull another 40 amp circuit.

There is no telling if your breaker box will even support a 100 amp breaker.
IIRC the NEC only allows one circuit to a detached outbuilding, if he wants/needs 100 amps it needs to be one circuit feeding a panel.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:23 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I would agree, a lot of people think they need more then they really do, I've seen a lot of older houses with 60 amp service with electric ranges, dryers, water heaters and well in addition to all the lighting load, not a big deal.


What I would do is use a 100 amp panel in the shop, mostly for the extra spaces, I would feed that with wire rated for 100 amps run in conduit back to the house where I would tie on to the number 6 wire protected by the 60 amp breaker. This way if you find you do need more power you will only have to replace the number 6 in the house and the breaker.

If you don't want to do this at least oversize the conduit so larger wire could be pulled in the future.
Good advice! Wire rated at 100 amps is 4 gauge according to the interwebz. Any issue splicing a 4 gauge with a 6 gauge?

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The easiest solution is probably going to be pulling another circuit. Sorry, I am not sure what this means?

If I am picturing this right, you have a small disconnect outside (fed from a 60 amp double pole breaker in your house) you are planning on pulling out of the disconnect to your shop. Yes, you have the correct picture

You TYPICALLy can't pull 100 amps on # 6, but welders are figured at a different load than a regular circuit ( due to duty cycle and shit).

If you feel that you have to have 100 amp service, you are going to pull out all that expensive #6 and put in bigger wire. ( and depending on the disconnect, you may have to swap that out too).

If 100 amps is the goal, pull another 40 amp circuit. Again, I am confused?

There is no telling if your breaker box will even support a 100 amp breakerThe house has 200 amp service, a huge breaker box completely full.
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At my house, we have a 60 amp sub-panel in the shop about the same distance. It's a three bay shop with all the equipment you listed and then some. As Grumpy said, you're not running all that stuff at once. I'm only an Apprentice Electrician, but what I've seen done, that would be plenty. That is unless you got all your buddies in there throwin down the fabrication skills.
What is a 60 amp sub panel? My wire is connected to the main breaker box via a 60 amp breaker
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:25 PM   #14 (permalink)
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IIRC the NEC only allows one circuit to a detached outbuilding, if he wants/needs 100 amps it needs to be one circuit feeding a panel.
These rules may or may not pertain to me. I live in the sticks in Arkansas. I had to get zero permits or inspections when building my house or shop.

Edit: i do not WANT to do anything but whats already in place (60 amp). But I am afraid of getting everything done and finding out I am screwed.
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Last edited by cisco; 04-09-2012 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:34 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I'm running everything you have listed off a 40 amp feed to my shop...never had an issue. Even with the 220v heater going all winter. You have plenty of juice there.

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Old 04-09-2012, 08:37 PM   #16 (permalink)
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IIRC the NEC only allows one circuit to a detached outbuilding, if he wants/needs 100 amps it needs to be one circuit feeding a panel.
I thought that may be the case, but I figured, desperate times and all.

Cisco, What I meant by another circuit was, 2 breakers & 2 disconnect (a 40 amp breaker you dont have yet AND the 60 amp breaker you already have)

Code only wants one breaker, because they don't want you to turn the breaker or disconnect OFF and think the whole shop is dead and then electrocute yourself on a wire that wasn't tied into that breaker. (zappp ...... Damn, where did that voltage come from )

It's more about the next owner who doesn't realize what you did, (or for you when you forget what you did)
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:04 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I have the exact same situation. about 60 from main panel to the end of the house with just under 100' feet more wire to the shop. All 6 gauge. I dont have electric heat and never will. I have plenty of equipment, but not all running at the same time.


If I were setting up a new service, I would run 100 amps to the shop. But the 60 has been working fine for me.
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:24 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I've run all that on a 30 AMP dryer circuit, but just because you CAN doesn't mean you should or will enjoy the hassle

If your 5HP Compressor kicks on they often trip a 30AMP breaker, now if your using a 220v welder at capacity (not a big one) you could easily use 20-25 amps. Add a few lights, a fan, and you are EASILY over 60amps.

That's just with the compressor randomly kicking on/off, now imagine a 20-30amp draw from plasma and the compressor cycling on/off 30amp + starting arc of the plasma and bam another breaker.

I'd go 100 AMP. For sure, and you should be fine.
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:44 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Hey Cisco, I would go 100amp minimum if you can. Here is my story.

I built my shop in 2003. I only needed enough power to run the lights and a few small power tools. My electrician, in all of his wisdom, said "well let me go ahead and run big enough wire so that you can always go to 220 later if you get a welder." I said I wouldn't need to but he did it anyway.

A few years later, I got a welder and a plasma cutter. Still had a small compressor. Another electrician came out to wire up the 220 for me and was happy to find that he didn't have to run new wire from the meter, he just had to rewire the panel inside the shop. Saved me a ton of money.

Now I have a CNC plasma cutter, huge compressor, a welder, a handheld plasma, about eleventy billion power tools, and I'm about to put in air conditioning. I'm finding that 100 amp service may not be enough and I'm going to have to coordinate when some things turn on so I don't pop the main breaker. So I'm going to have to upgrade to 200 amp service in the near future.

The reason people always say go as big as you can afford, is because you will eventually need that power. It's inevitable. And if you have to pay twice to get it done, then you've lost money.

So do the 100 amp service and you should be good to go for a long time. It doesn't cost that much more to go 100 amp now versus 60 amp.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:04 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Cisco, Is it GE, Square D, Eaton or what and what series is it? Can you post a pic?

I am curious if you can fit or if they offer a 100 amp breaker (not the main) for your breaker box.

100 amp branch breaker for a residential breaker box seems odd to me.
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:31 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Hey Cisco, I would go 100amp minimum if you can. Here is my story.

I built my shop in 2003. I only needed enough power to run the lights and a few small power tools. My electrician, in all of his wisdom, said "well let me go ahead and run big enough wire so that you can always go to 220 later if you get a welder." I said I wouldn't need to but he did it anyway.

A few years later, I got a welder and a plasma cutter. Still had a small compressor. Another electrician came out to wire up the 220 for me and was happy to find that he didn't have to run new wire from the meter, he just had to rewire the panel inside the shop. Saved me a ton of money.

Now I have a CNC plasma cutter, huge compressor, a welder, a handheld plasma, about eleventy billion power tools, and I'm about to put in air conditioning. I'm finding that 100 amp service may not be enough and I'm going to have to coordinate when some things turn on so I don't pop the main breaker. So I'm going to have to upgrade to 200 amp service in the near future.

The reason people always say go as big as you can afford, is because you will eventually need that power. It's inevitable. And if you have to pay twice to get it done, then you've lost money.

So do the 100 amp service and you should be good to go for a long time. It doesn't cost that much more to go 100 amp now versus 60 amp.

x2

going a little over on electric now is way cheaper in the long run. i know people are getting away with running on lower amps garages or shops, but you get two people in there with lights a compressor grinder or chop shaw and a welder your going to be pushing the limits of your 60 amp from the house.

at the very least run larger conduit put a 100 amp sub panel in the shop and run wire large enough to carry 100 amps. and just splice it into your 60 amp on the side of the house. you never know what you will have in 5 years maybe you will add on or something.

i would be frugal on every aspect of a shop build but doors and electric. I am in a shop with shit for electric and an HUGE pos of a garage door. i hate extension cords and never having enough power. stoping what im doing tripping over the cord to go reset the breaker.
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:42 AM   #22 (permalink)
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What I would do is use a 100 amp panel in the shop, mostly for the extra spaces, I would feed that with wire rated for 100 amps run in conduit back to the house where I would tie on to the number 6 wire protected by the 60 amp breaker. This way if you find you do need more power you will only have to replace the number 6 in the house and the breaker.

If you don't want to do this at least oversize the conduit so larger wire could be pulled in the future.
This. It at least gives you room to grow and then you only need to replace the wire in the house and the disconnect at the house, if there is one. My story is similar to others here as well. I started off in 2005 with a 40 or 50 amp sub panel feeding the garage. Then I re-worked everything and upgraded service to give me 200amps in the garage (which was always more than enough power btw) and last week I moved everything to a shop with 480 3 phase power. I have 5 pieces of equipment that are able to run off of 480 3 phase. If you'd have asked me in 2005 about what I would need in the future, I would have been way off. .

If you have space to grow, you likely will grow into it and your equipment could very likely get larger than you originally imagined you would need. In which case, your electrical service will be your limiting factor.
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Old 04-10-2012, 05:53 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Cisco, Is it GE, Square D, Eaton or what and what series is it? Can you post a pic?

I am curious if you can fit or if they offer a 100 amp breaker (not the main) for your breaker box.

100 amp branch breaker for a residential breaker box seems odd to me.
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Old 04-10-2012, 06:18 AM   #24 (permalink)
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60 amp should be enough I think, but here will be your issue. How much stuff do you plan on running at the same time? For example if you are welding while the air compressor is running and a friend is running a grinder you may blow a breaker. I currently have 2 wires running to my shop, one is 30 amp and the other is 15. The 15 amp was there originally, and it now runs lights, radio, and a few outlets. I'll plug a drill into it, drill bit sharpener, stuff like that. The 30 amp is running a welder, air compressor, and more outlets. I have not tried to run the air compressor and welder at the same time, but I don't think I have enough juice.

Since you already have the 6 gauge ran, you could either go with it or add another wire going down there. If you hook a 10 gauge up to a 30 amp breaker that could be used for lights, some light duty outlets, and the air compressor. Use the other one for everything else. Or something along those lines. One bonus, at least for me, of having two circuits is that you never lose everything. If I blow a breaker on one circuit I always have some light to at least make my way out of the garage.

I know nothing, however, about code so you may not even be allowed to do this.
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Old 04-10-2012, 06:23 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewchief View Post
I would agree, a lot of people think they need more then they really do, I've seen a lot of older houses with 60 amp service with electric ranges, dryers, water heaters and well in addition to all the lighting load, not a big deal.


What I would do is use a 100 amp panel in the shop, mostly for the extra spaces, I would feed that with wire rated for 100 amps run in conduit back to the house where I would tie on to the number 6 wire protected by the 60 amp breaker. This way if you find you do need more power you will only have to replace the number 6 in the house and the breaker.

If you don't want to do this at least oversize the conduit so larger wire could be pulled in the future.
This is the most cost effective advice in this thread. Tie into what you already have on the house with conduit, wire, and sub panel appropriately sized for your "someday" load. When you outgrow what's in the house, then up size it as required.

And whatever you do, get someone competent to wire it up.


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