Need advice> Installing a 100 amp breaker box I am installing a used 100 amp Square D - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > General Tech > Shop and Tools
Notices

Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-07-2012, 12:47 PM   #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Member # 79732
Location: east central illinois
Posts: 175
Send a message via Yahoo to butwhat
Need advice> Installing a 100 amp breaker box I am installing a used 100 amp Square D

Need advice> Installing a 100 amp breaker box
I am installing a used 100 amp Square D QO breaker box in place of a fuse box we had in an out building.

There is no lug for the ground. Where do I stick it?

All the other breaker boxes I've installed had a lug for the ground as well. If this one had a normal ground wire instead of the wire it has, I could probably just install it in the ground/ neutral bar.

Thanks
__________________
98 K2500 Suburban 6.5TD 96 K1500 Suburban 6.5TD 95 6.5TD Tahoe 94 K3500 CC NV4500 5 speed 6.5 TD
butwhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2012, 01:15 PM   #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Member # 101706
Posts: 29
By the ground bar kit.

SQUARE D Qo Ground Bar Kit - Ground Bar Kit - 1D374|PK7GTA - Grainger Industrial Supply


Make sure you remove the screw from the neutral bar so that is not bounded to the panel.
jonnysteals is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 11-07-2012, 01:30 PM   #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Member # 79732
Location: east central illinois
Posts: 175
Send a message via Yahoo to butwhat
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnysteals View Post
By the ground bar kit.

SQUARE D Qo Ground Bar Kit - Ground Bar Kit - 1D374|PK7GTA - Grainger Industrial Supply


Make sure you remove the screw from the neutral bar so that is not bounded to the panel.
When you install the ground bar do you need to insulate it from the box?

The neutral bar is attached to the box and has continuity.

I have the ground bar but it has no provisions to insulate it from the box

Just saw this - Make sure you remove the screw from the neutral bar so that is not bounded to the panel.

I'm not seeing the removable screw in the neutral bar. Did all the Square D QO boxes come with one?

I remember installing them on a few boxes. So I know what you are referring to.
__________________
98 K2500 Suburban 6.5TD 96 K1500 Suburban 6.5TD 95 6.5TD Tahoe 94 K3500 CC NV4500 5 speed 6.5 TD

Last edited by butwhat; 11-07-2012 at 02:05 PM.
butwhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2012, 01:35 PM   #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Member # 101706
Posts: 29
look here for the screw location

My New 200AMP Homeline Square D - Electrical - Page 2 - DIY Chatroom - DIY Home Improvement Forum
jonnysteals is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2012, 01:50 PM   #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Member # 101706
Posts: 29
Is this the main panel or this a sub panel fed from a main panel somewhere else. I may have given you bad information regarding to remove the screw.
jonnysteals is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2012, 07:36 PM   #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Member # 63058
Location: Van Alstyne, TX
Posts: 150
There are several 100 amp Square D QO breaker boxes and they look different. If it is a sub-panel (as opposed to a main panel), the ground wire would use one of the larger positions on the ground bar. On a sub panel (which it sounds like what you are describing), I install the ground from the main panel on one end of the ground bar. If it is far enough from the main panel to require a separate earth ground, I install it on the other end of the ground bar.

If you search google images, you should be able to find something that looks like your box. If you will post the link, it will help others to be able to understand what you are looking at.
__________________
Maude - An '87 YJ with a few mods here and there.
Maude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2012, 10:59 PM   #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Member # 79732
Location: east central illinois
Posts: 175
Send a message via Yahoo to butwhat
Wish I could figure out how to post pics here.

With your help, I got it figured out.

It is a sub-panel in an out building. It is 125 feet from the house.

It has it's own ground rod.

I found the screw that mates the neutral bar to the panel, removed it and added the ground bar. Luckily I never had to make a trip to town. Had everything I needed here.

Thanks for the advice.
__________________
98 K2500 Suburban 6.5TD 96 K1500 Suburban 6.5TD 95 6.5TD Tahoe 94 K3500 CC NV4500 5 speed 6.5 TD
butwhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 04:10 PM   #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Member # 79732
Location: east central illinois
Posts: 175
Send a message via Yahoo to butwhat
New problem:
I am installing a 3 blade 50 amp range plug. Since the Ground and the neutral are not together, does the third wire go to the ground or neutral bar?
Thanks again
__________________
98 K2500 Suburban 6.5TD 96 K1500 Suburban 6.5TD 95 6.5TD Tahoe 94 K3500 CC NV4500 5 speed 6.5 TD
butwhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 06:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Member # 79732
Location: east central illinois
Posts: 175
Send a message via Yahoo to butwhat
I am installing a 3 blade 50 amp range plug on a sub panel with an added ground bar. Since the Ground and the neutral are not together, The screw that grounds the neutral bar is removed, does the third wire go to the ground or neutral bar?
I was told neutral bar but I'm thinking it should go to ground
__________________
98 K2500 Suburban 6.5TD 96 K1500 Suburban 6.5TD 95 6.5TD Tahoe 94 K3500 CC NV4500 5 speed 6.5 TD
butwhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 07:54 PM   #10 (permalink)
Rock God
 
offroad_joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Member # 16829
Location: so cal
Posts: 1,446
If your wiring 220 there is not a neutral there are two hots and a ground.
__________________
2013 Tin Bender Jambo October 19,2013
http://www.tinbenders.org/sf.php

Quote:
Originally Posted by camo View Post
doesn't mean I can't be a douche bag
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance View Post
10-4, thanks for the Cliff's notes... I don't think I ever read the "bounty thread" so I was/am clueless on this. Sounds to me like camo is a HGTD douchebag though.
offroad_joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 08:55 PM   #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Member # 79732
Location: east central illinois
Posts: 175
Send a message via Yahoo to butwhat
Thanks

Now I have more questions involving sub panels.

This out building is about 125 feet from the house and has it's own ground rod.

Why is it that you can not have the neutral bar grounded in this situation?

I know the older sub-feed panels were all the same as main panels.

Is this something that arose from sub-panels that did not have their own ground rod?

I'm running into issues with older 3 prong 220 stuff that needs a neutral in addition to the ground because they have a fan motor that runs on 110 or such

I do not understand this completely and am tempted just to put the screw back in.

What are the risks of doing that. Things were wired like that for years and there was obviously a reason that changed.

Our whole place could be a sub-feed.

The power comes to the tool shed - 2 ground rods - and has double lugs on the incoming power. One lug goes to the tool shed and the other goes to the detached garage - which has it's own ground rod.

I know that building is not wired as a sub-feed.

It does the double lug thing there and runs to the house - which has 2 ground rods. One for the main panel and one for the sub-panel which is by today's standards wired incorrectly. The sub-panel has the grounding screw in the neutral bar and no ground bar.

Then it runs to the out building we are working on. Thought installing the breaker box to replace the fuse box would be a simple project but we are running into difficulties as described.

I can't afford to hire a bona fide electrician right now. Especially if he starts updating all that appears to be possibly not entirely right.

I would just like to understand the reasons behind the codes & what the potential risks are of leaving things as is in my particular situation.

I've always took care of the small stuff like swapping a box myself but mixing the old with the new seems to be a pain.
__________________
98 K2500 Suburban 6.5TD 96 K1500 Suburban 6.5TD 95 6.5TD Tahoe 94 K3500 CC NV4500 5 speed 6.5 TD
butwhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 09:34 PM   #12 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
RustoleumWhite's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4506
Location: WA
Posts: 4,785
By Code, sub-panels in a separate building are required to have a "ground" run with the feeder wires that power to (from the main panel to the sub-panel) AND a ground-rod at the building. Its called a supplemental ground rod. You can probably ask 10 people why you need a ground rod and you'll get 10 different answers. Its code, so if you want to do it right you do it, a ground rod is $8-10 bucks.

Panels in a separate building are also required to have a "disconnecting means" either in or before the panel. It could be a Switch, a Disconnect, or even one of those HVAC pull-out disconnects. Easiest way is to add a back-feed main breaker if you have a main-lug only panel. You'll need to proper hold-down however, its like 3-bucks at Home Depot.

Sub-panels require the "Ground" bar and neutral bar to be separate. The ground bar is attached to the can, the neutral "floats" or is isolated from the can. The only time the neutral and ground are bonded together is in the main panel. I bus full of nuns isn't going to explode if they are bonded elsewhere, but weird "ground loops" and other potential issues can arise is the way it was always explained to me. Some equipment won't care, but some equipment can. Best just to do it "right" and keep the isolated. Its easy to do, ground bars are cheap and easy to install.

As for your 3-prong stuff. A 3-prong, 240 Volt cord is good for 2-hots and a ground ONLY. If you have a piece of equipment that has 240V and 120V loads you need a 4-prong, that gets you your neutral that you need to make 240 into 120. Which means you need 4-wire cord and to add a neutral conductor to the wire feeding the receptacle.


What are you referring to when you say "double lug". You mean a 2-pole breakers?
__________________
I wheel a mean jackstand
RustoleumWhite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 03:32 AM   #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Member # 13384
Location: BVille, Ok
Posts: 1,566
Send a message via AIM to SolidAxleDurango
Not to sound like an ass... But with the number of questions and the nature of the questions... Do you really think it's a good idea for you to be wiring your own shop?? I'm thinking not.
__________________
08 Kawa ATVs / 14 AC Wildcat X <- we ride / 07 Ram <- we pull / 12 Keystone Avalanche <- We sleep
SolidAxleDurango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 05:41 AM   #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Member # 79732
Location: east central illinois
Posts: 175
Send a message via Yahoo to butwhat
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidAxleDurango View Post
Not to sound like an ass... But with the number of questions and the nature of the questions... Do you really think it's a good idea for you to be wiring your own shop?? I'm thinking not.
I've done plenty of wiring. They've changed the rules since I started. I'm dealing with stuff that was wired over 30 years ago when they didn't have the sub-panel rules.

I understand the sub-panel rules. I just do not understand the need for them in certain applications. It worked for 50 years without having the neutral and ground separated on a sub-panel with a ground rod.

I would just like the finer points explained

And you did sound like a young green know-it-all ass
__________________
98 K2500 Suburban 6.5TD 96 K1500 Suburban 6.5TD 95 6.5TD Tahoe 94 K3500 CC NV4500 5 speed 6.5 TD
butwhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 06:05 AM   #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Member # 79732
Location: east central illinois
Posts: 175
Send a message via Yahoo to butwhat
Quote:
Originally Posted by RustoleumWhite View Post
By Code, sub-panels in a separate building are required to have a "ground" run with the feeder wires that power to (from the main panel to the sub-panel) AND a ground-rod at the building. Its called a supplemental ground rod. You can probably ask 10 people why you need a ground rod and you'll get 10 different answers. Its code, so if you want to do it right you do it, a ground rod is $8-10 bucks.

Panels in a separate building are also required to have a "disconnecting means" either in or before the panel. It could be a Switch, a Disconnect, or even one of those HVAC pull-out disconnects. Easiest way is to add a back-feed main breaker if you have a main-lug only panel. You'll need to proper hold-down however, its like 3-bucks at Home Depot.

Sub-panels require the "Ground" bar and neutral bar to be separate. The ground bar is attached to the can, the neutral "floats" or is isolated from the can. The only time the neutral and ground are bonded together is in the main panel. I bus full of nuns isn't going to explode if they are bonded elsewhere, but weird "ground loops" and other potential issues can arise is the way it was always explained to me. Some equipment won't care, but some equipment can. Best just to do it "right" and keep the isolated. Its easy to do, ground bars are cheap and easy to install.

As for your 3-prong stuff. A 3-prong, 240 Volt cord is good for 2-hots and a ground ONLY. If you have a piece of equipment that has 240V and 120V loads you need a 4-prong, that gets you your neutral that you need to make 240 into 120. Which means you need 4-wire cord and to add a neutral conductor to the wire feeding the receptacle.


What are you referring to when you say "double lug". You mean a 2-pole breakers?
On the main feeds The lugs have 2 set screw connections. Like these

midsouthelectronics.com, electrical cable dual rated single and double lugs mechanical connectors

Everything was done to code when it was done years ago.

There is a ground rod and disconnect at each box on the place. There is no ground pulled with the feeder wires. - how long has this been code?

Thanks
__________________
98 K2500 Suburban 6.5TD 96 K1500 Suburban 6.5TD 95 6.5TD Tahoe 94 K3500 CC NV4500 5 speed 6.5 TD

Last edited by butwhat; 11-10-2012 at 05:22 AM.
butwhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 08:05 PM   #16 (permalink)
Rock God
 
offroad_joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Member # 16829
Location: so cal
Posts: 1,446
Quote:
Originally Posted by butwhat View Post
Where do you add the neutral wire to a 220 air compressor, welder, grinder or saw? There's no place for it on these machines.


Thanks
I'm not an electrician and edited out part the of your question I have no clue on.

You don't need a neutral wire on the 220 stuff. There are 3 wires 2 hots and 1 ground.
__________________
2013 Tin Bender Jambo October 19,2013
http://www.tinbenders.org/sf.php

Quote:
Originally Posted by camo View Post
doesn't mean I can't be a douche bag
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance View Post
10-4, thanks for the Cliff's notes... I don't think I ever read the "bounty thread" so I was/am clueless on this. Sounds to me like camo is a HGTD douchebag though.
offroad_joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2012, 11:07 AM   #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Member # 79732
Location: east central illinois
Posts: 175
Send a message via Yahoo to butwhat
I've got everything under control now except I need a new blower motor for the heater.

That's another thread

Does anybody have a line on a cheaper blower motor than this:

new and old style motors:

3900-2010-000, Marley Motor by Motorvenca, Model F33TPREV5053, 5.3 WATT, 208 / 2
__________________
98 K2500 Suburban 6.5TD 96 K1500 Suburban 6.5TD 95 6.5TD Tahoe 94 K3500 CC NV4500 5 speed 6.5 TD
butwhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2012, 11:08 AM   #18 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Member # 104517
Location: MT
Posts: 439
Just for future reference, pictures help a ton. Sounds like you have it under control now.

The ground is really more of a safety than anything, gives the current a path back to ground so it can trip the breaker, instead of just electrifying the equipment and potentially making you the ground path. I'd hook your 3rd wire to ground, as it'll still give you 120v, but have a lower impedance to ground if something goes wrong. (Since your neutral has 125'+ to run back, which can be quite a bit of impedance.)

Also the reason I don't like working with square d, they have so many different models it's mind boggling.
__________________
R.I.P. Jason Payne

Last edited by chevy_man; 11-11-2012 at 11:09 AM.
chevy_man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2012, 11:13 AM   #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Member # 79732
Location: east central illinois
Posts: 175
Send a message via Yahoo to butwhat
I haven't figured out how to post pics here. Probably because I haven't tried.

It'd just be one more thing to do. I need to find a place to post the pictures and then link them

Thanks Again for all the advice
__________________
98 K2500 Suburban 6.5TD 96 K1500 Suburban 6.5TD 95 6.5TD Tahoe 94 K3500 CC NV4500 5 speed 6.5 TD

Last edited by butwhat; 11-11-2012 at 11:13 AM.
butwhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 08:30 PM   #20 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Member # 79732
Location: east central illinois
Posts: 175
Send a message via Yahoo to butwhat
The electric heater calls for a 30 amp breaker.

I'm confused on the breaker and wire size.

The OEM 20 amp cord on the heater and the internal wiring are only 12 ga. and it has a 20 molded plug on it

Wouldn't a 30 amp breaker be over sized for the cord and internal wiring?

I used a double pull 20 amp breaker with 10 ga. wires

The fan is 220 volt.

Thanks
__________________
98 K2500 Suburban 6.5TD 96 K1500 Suburban 6.5TD 95 6.5TD Tahoe 94 K3500 CC NV4500 5 speed 6.5 TD
butwhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 05:30 AM   #21 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Member # 63058
Location: Van Alstyne, TX
Posts: 150
Breakers are only supposed to be loaded to a maximum of 80% of their rated capacity to prevent tripping when a load is first placed on the circuit (ie a 20 amp breaker should only be loaded to a maximum of 16 amps). A 12 ga cord can carry 20 amps (as you calculated), so it would need a 25 amp breaker. Since 25 is not a common size, a 30 amp breaker would be used.
__________________
Maude - An '87 YJ with a few mods here and there.
Maude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 06:27 AM   #22 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Member # 79732
Location: east central illinois
Posts: 175
Send a message via Yahoo to butwhat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maude View Post
Breakers are only supposed to be loaded to a maximum of 80% of their rated capacity to prevent tripping when a load is first placed on the circuit (ie a 20 amp breaker should only be loaded to a maximum of 16 amps). A 12 ga cord can carry 20 amps (as you calculated), so it would need a 25 amp breaker. Since 25 is not a common size, a 30 amp breaker would be used.
Thanks a bunch

it still doesn't quite make sense to me. It's the part about 12 ga not being able to carry 30 amps, that gets me. Seems to me the cord and internal wiring would be weaker than the breaker and give up first. Meaning you would either need heavier wiring for the load or a smaller breaker so the breaker is not oversized when compared to the wiring
__________________
98 K2500 Suburban 6.5TD 96 K1500 Suburban 6.5TD 95 6.5TD Tahoe 94 K3500 CC NV4500 5 speed 6.5 TD

Last edited by butwhat; 11-18-2012 at 06:35 AM.
butwhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 08:31 PM   #23 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Member # 63058
Location: Van Alstyne, TX
Posts: 150
If you install a 20 amp breaker, it will probably work ok, but it will trip occasionally. My guess is that the load is less than 20 amps except at start-up. That means that when it first comes on, it might pull something like 25 amps for a short period of time. This scenario would not be a problem for the wire because the amperage would drop back down before it got a chance to get hot. This scenario would be a problem for the breaker, because it will trip the breaker because it exceeds its rated capacity.
__________________
Maude - An '87 YJ with a few mods here and there.
Maude is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.