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Old 08-02-2004, 10:21 PM   #1 (permalink)
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To build a big boy hydraulic shop press...

I recall reading somewhere that Camo wants a shop press but wants to wait until he finds an affordable one so I thought I'd take advantage of that

I justified buying all my other tools (to myself and my wife) by saying that I'd be able to build the rest of my tools once the foundation was set. I have a mill, lathe, horizontal bandsaw, cnc plasma table...you get the idea. I want a 5' long hydro press with roughly 60 tons of power. I'd like to use it for shop press operations and double as a sheet metal brake...let's not worry about the dies, let's focus on the brake and worry about the dies later. They're simple.

Anyway, I've been hunting around on-line looking for the DIY guys who might have built one but none have built something like this. I figure that with the hydro stuff people are putting together for these benders, and seeing Scott's (RockStomper) double cylinder press, that this is entirely possible.

I realize this thing is going to be freakishly heavy...and keep in mind that I'm not a hydro guy...So here's the first round of questions:

1) How can I best determine the number of cylinders needed to acomplish the desired tonages?

2) Is it reasonable to assume that I can supply enough volume and pressure to this number of cylinders?

3) Is there some type of pressure block (like used in fuel systems) that equalizes the pressure/volume sent to the rams so I can be sure they all extend at the same time?

I know there are many of us out there that would really like to have something like this and my guess is a really sweet machine could be built for $1000...I'll take the plunge and post up the evolution w/ progress pics if anyone wants to toss in some expertise and help in the areas where I lack in experience.

Thanks,

Matt

Last edited by lilscorpion; 08-02-2004 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 08-03-2004, 06:40 AM   #2 (permalink)
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A breif answer to most of your questions...

Cylinder pressure is a direct function of the cross section of the ram versus the cross section of the piston, thus the larger the piston that drives the ram, the greater the pressure created on the piston head. (That sounds odly sexual but I AM talking hydraulics here... )

Using multiple cylinders would be mostly a waste of time, just get a single cylinder that provides the needed tonnage of force and build a frame to hold it. In order to build the frame, you will need to carefully calculate the sheer force of the bolts that you use to hold everything together (or weldments if you are going to weld the frame). I would add a safety factor of at least 10 and preferrably as much as 15:1 (meaning, when you factor the load strength of the welds of bolts, make it at least 10 times as strong as your calculations). For a 60 ton press, that is a LOT of load strength. That amount of tonnage would litteally rip apart some of the lighter steel used in smaller presses, so you are looking to really beef up the framework.

You will need something like a Machinery's handbook to determine the factors described above, and it will take some time to mathematically sort everything out. Of course, you can just start building and wait to see what breaks, but I have seen what happens when 60 tons of press lets go - it is NOT pretty... It puts holes in concrete floors and rips holes in the roof... not to mention what it does to the person standing there observing the process...

For hydraulic factors, there are a couple that you need to know...

First - Force at the end of the ram = PSI (of the hydrualic system) X Area of the piston (sq. in.). a 5" ram would have 19.64 sq. inches of piston and multiplying that times 5000 PSI (about the highest practical working load without going extreme on hoses and pumps - 3000 PSI is MUCH more practical) = 98,200 - divided by 2000 = 49 Ton. At 5000 PSI, you would need a piston that is at least 24 sq. inches. If you go to 3000 PSI you would need 40 sq. in. of piston area (roughly an 8" piston).

HYDRAULIC ABBREVIATIONS
GPM = gallons per minute GPS = gallons per second
HP = horsepower PSI = pounds per square inch
RPM = revolutions per minute

HYDRAULIC FORMULAS
1 GALLON = 231 cubic inches
GPM = GPS times 60
GPS = DISPLACEMENT divided by SECONDS
HP required = GPM times PSI divided by 1714
FORCE (cyl) = PSI times AREA of piston
DISPLACEMENT (cyl) = STROKE times AREA of piston

To determine the GPM required to extend a cylinder in a certain number of seconds:
DISPLACEMENT = STROKE times AREA
GPS = DISPLACEMENT divided by SECONDS then
GPM = GPS times 60

I found some very useful information here: http://www.baumhydraulics.com/calculators.htm

There are a number of "calculators" that will factor your needs.

Also here a nice catalog of hose and fitting specifications: http://www.hydraulic-supply.com/pdf/1372.pdf

Here is an 8" ram that will make the PSI you are looing for:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.as...name=hydraulic

Check here for some ideas of how industrial applications use hydraulics to press/punch: http://www.multicyl.com/?src=overture

An interesting alternative that might work out really well is found here:
http://www.projacks.com/45555.htm
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Last edited by glfredrick; 08-03-2004 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 08-03-2004, 08:12 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I can't help ya, but I wanna say that I wish you were my neighbor so I could come over and play with all that cool stuff!
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Old 08-03-2004, 08:56 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glfredrick
Using multiple cylinders would be mostly a waste of time, just get a single cylinder that provides the needed tonnage of force and build a frame to hold it.
I thought about that but my concern is evenly distributing the force over the entire length of the 5' wide surface. With 2 or 3 rams I could easily move them out and the rams themselves wouldn't need to be as big as the one you pointed out. Each ram would only need to put out 1/3 the total force.

I also agree about building it beefy. I will do the math (since I'll be the one standing in front of it when it goes to work) and I really don't want to lose any fingers...

Another thought, would it make any sense to try to make this similar to some of the hydraulic brakes or iron workers that have a cylinder attached to a lever and the press part opposing it so the leverage can aid in the pressing force?

Quote:
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but I wanna say that I wish you were my neighbor so I could come over and play with all that cool stuff!
Having toys is cool but having the bug to need to have them all is sometimes a curse. For some reason nothing I buy is ever enough.
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Old 08-03-2004, 09:05 PM   #5 (permalink)
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my thoughts are this

be fawkin carefull in building a DIY 60ton press

if you have never worked with a press of this tonage BE CAREFULL

I pressed my Unimog portals appart in a 80ton jobber at ~70 tons the hubs broke free and jumped 1/4 inch and parts went flying no one got hurt but the press has a 10,000psi power pack with a 10' control wand

needless to say I was ~13 feet away hiding in a line of sight behind the press frame

every time the guage passed the next thousand mark I would say "wow 4K" "wow 5K" each time every one arround me would take ~4 steps back

it poped at 7+K

if you like your health BE CAREFULL
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Old 08-03-2004, 09:55 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jstarnes
my thoughts are this

be fawkin carefull in building a DIY 60ton press

if you have never worked with a press of this tonage BE CAREFULL

I pressed my Unimog portals appart in a 80ton jobber at ~70 tons the hubs broke free and jumped 1/4 inch and parts went flying no one got hurt but the press has a 10,000psi power pack with a 10' control wand

needless to say I was ~13 feet away hiding in a line of sight behind the press frame

every time the guage passed the next thousand mark I would say "wow 4K" "wow 5K" each time every one arround me would take ~4 steps back

it poped at 7+K

if you like your health BE CAREFULL
I like to be careful. Thanks for the word of caution. The unfortunate thing about posting on a public forum is that people can't 'know' what you're like. I'm a very cautious person and am good at this sort of thing.

I'm not worried about parts poping or breaking. I'm trying to brake 3/16" plate (would like 1/4" but oh well) at 5' lengths so there's no choice but to go big...
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Old 08-03-2004, 11:43 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilscorpion
I like to be careful. Thanks for the word of caution. The unfortunate thing about posting on a public forum is that people can't 'know' what you're like. I'm a very cautious person and am good at this sort of thing.

I'm not worried about parts poping or breaking. I'm trying to brake 3/16" plate (would like 1/4" but oh well) at 5' lengths so there's no choice but to go big...

so you saying I will read about you in the Post "death by scarry press"














I live in Golden pm me if you want to chat I have a few ideas for you and I have a few big iron hookups for your death trap
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:40 AM   #8 (permalink)
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OK, I understand better why you would want to have multiple rams, but I'm still thinking about the math - I'm not sure that having multiple 30 ton rams would generate more then 30 ton overall... Just 30 ton spread over a wider span - but if there is someone out there that has more experience with this than me chime in... I'll try to check it out to see what happens...

As for safety, why not just install a cage door... I have seen that done on large presses. You swing it closed when pressing and though it doesn't eliminate the issues with stuff blowing up, it does tend to contain it somewhat.

You might want to pose your question here: http://www.wallenderengineering.com/...forum&forum=16

I have already gone on record at that site looking for a large home-built press/sheer, and there may be someone that can answer the more technical hydraulic questions. You will also get more responses when Pirate gets its search and new posts links working again... Might have to be patient for a couple days.
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Old 08-04-2004, 06:08 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glfredrick
I'm not sure that having multiple 30 ton rams would generate more then 30 ton overall...
a 30 ton ram will have 30 ton's of output at X psi

2 30 ton rams will have 60 tons of output (if you can mak a frame where both can push equally to 1 point) at the same X psi
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Old 08-04-2004, 06:47 AM   #10 (permalink)
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PM Whizzy with this thread and maybe he will post pictures of the one his brother built.
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Old 08-04-2004, 07:41 AM   #11 (permalink)
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This is the nicest one I have seen that someone has built. I want to eventually build one like this so I saved the pics. We currently have a 60 Ton vertical that we use for bearings and such....but this one seems like it would make some jobs alot easier.

Larry
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Old 08-04-2004, 07:41 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Old 08-04-2004, 07:42 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Old 08-04-2004, 07:43 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Old 08-04-2004, 11:04 AM   #15 (permalink)
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#4

All that beautiful work and the damn guage is upside down?

Hopefully it's just the pic thats flipped
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Old 08-04-2004, 11:34 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
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All that beautiful work and the damn guage is upside down?

Hopefully it's just the pic thats flipped

It's upside down look at the first pic.
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Old 08-05-2004, 11:56 AM   #17 (permalink)
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This is the nicest one I have seen that someone has built. I want to eventually build one like this so I saved the pics. We currently have a 60 Ton vertical that we use for bearings and such....but this one seems like it would make some jobs alot easier.

Larry
Very nice. Not sure what it's used for...seems odd to have the ram all the way at one end...I'm sure it makes sense for whatever they're using it for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by glfredrick
As for safety, why not just install a cage door... I have seen that done on large presses. You swing it closed when pressing and though it doesn't eliminate the issues with stuff blowing up, it does tend to contain it somewhat.

You might want to pose your question here: http://www.wallenderengineering.com...wforum&forum=16

I have already gone on record at that site looking for a large home-built press/sheer, and there may be someone that can answer the more technical hydraulic questions. You will also get more responses when Pirate gets its search and new posts links working again... Might have to be patient for a couple days.
I'll check it out.

Keep in mind guys that the 60 tons that I've calculated is based on the tonage needed to brake 1/4" plate when using a die with a given shape. If I make the mouth of the die wider (simply put), I can reduce the necessary tonnage to brake it. All that this means is that if I can only make it 40 tons then that's what I'll do but I do need the pressure to be equal over the entire length of the press (equal being relative - some flex is certain).

Maybe a 5' wide brake isn't reasonable and it's possible that the 60 tons I desire isn't safe, but I'm fairly certain that this can be built to do what I want it to do without serious work.

I'm a little suprised that there hasn't been more who've tried though... Kinda seems like this would be a must have for quite a few guys out there.
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Old 08-20-2004, 08:56 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Here is our shop press. I dont know the tonnage but I think it is plenty for most things, but I am currently looking at a 275 toner for stamping rim centers.

One thing I highly recomend is a long travel and a power up and down cylinder. It is something that is a must after you get to use it a few times.
The power up and down helps alot in moving the table, but the long stroke keeps you from having to do it very often.
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Old 08-20-2004, 09:04 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Home Shop Machinist had a great write up with pictures and drawings for a 60 ton unit. I think it was in the last issue.
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Old 08-20-2004, 10:23 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Here is our shop press. I dont know the tonnage but I think it is plenty for most things, but I am currently looking at a 275 toner for stamping rim centers.

One thing I highly recomend is a long travel and a power up and down cylinder. It is something that is a must after you get to use it a few times.
The power up and down helps alot in moving the table, but the long stroke keeps you from having to do it very often.
Holly big presses!!! That's what I'm looking for but I need to figure out how to equally distribute the pressing force over a 4' length (so I can make my dies that long and get an equal bend).

Here's what I've found thus far...

http://www.jackxchange.com shows three manufacturers for hydraulic cylinders that I think will work well for this application. I noticed that the single acting ones (in the correct size) could be used to work with the JD benders...which got me thinking...

DOes anyone know if the foot pedals that we use for standard tubing benders will work with cylinders of greater size than 15+ ton cylinders? If this were the case, I could get a 55 ton unit for roughly $1k and use a air over hydraulic pump to make it all work. Something tells me that it wouldn't produce enough to do so though.

John, it looks like your system uses a hydro pump and valve just like some of the home brew hydro setups that are being made by memebers on the board...what tonnage is your machine capable of right now?

As for the design, the H-frame seems to be very common and likely the best structure but I'm looking for something that doesn't limit me on length (getting a part in there that needs a brake 4' long but is 5' total might be a pain given the H-frame itself. I was thinking of making it work something like this:



Notice how the ends are free and don't limit part length. Using a design like this will require arms that attach the ram (in the back) to the die channel in the front. It has also occured to me that if the arms were strong enough and mounted the correct way, they could be used as levers and help increase the force of the press...but can I keep it rigid enough?
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Old 08-20-2004, 02:32 PM   #21 (permalink)
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i would think for the time and cost of everything you could buy a older 8' brake at a auction..try looking at boweing they always have things as such up for bid there...
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Old 08-20-2004, 07:29 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Sure I can find something at an auction but in the size that I want it, there are very few hydro sheet metal brakes out there. The good production ones are huge and take up too much space. What I'm looking for is a machine that's strong enough to do what I want it to do but can actually do what I want it to do...besides, auction equipment may be in good shape but they don't like it when you do some test bends at the preview. By making it I'll know what I'm getting.


Besides, what's the fun in buying a huge used machine that needs work when I could build a sweeter one for the same price?
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Old 08-20-2004, 07:59 PM   #23 (permalink)
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He wants a big brake press. This is the one we have at work. I have no idea on the tonnage. To get an idea of the size, there is a door hiding behind it on the right.
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Old 08-20-2004, 08:00 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Next to it, on the right side of the door, is this shear.
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Old 08-21-2004, 07:22 PM   #25 (permalink)
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How about this one, it cost $750.00. It took about 5 days to make, 100 ton frame, 60 ton cyl. with 8" bore. steve
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve gerstner
Well, it is 60 ton but i bend steel plate. I use press brake dies and bend 3/4" steel plate 6" wide 90*, i can press the dana 60 front axle tubes right out with all of the plug welds still in it. steve


Edit: Those quotes and the pic came from this thread a while back:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19192
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