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Old 10-25-2005, 06:29 PM   #1 (permalink)
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220 volt extension cord, 30 amp to 50 amp.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, I just couldnt find anything by searching and I really dont want any unexpected BBQ's.

I'm making an extension cord that will go to my 30 amp dryer outlet for my new miller 175. I have 10/3 with white, green and black. The diagram that came with the 50 amp receptor for my welder says to put the green in the middle. The diagram that came with the 30 amp plug says to put the white wire in the middle.

I'm not quite sure how 220volt electricity works so this is why I have the question. The way I THINK it works is there are 2 wires that are both hot and one that is ground, and the two wires dont matter but the ground must stay the same. The problem is one diagram calls the white wire "neutral", while the other doesnt call the wire anything but talks about a ground.

So, should I keep the white wire in the middle on both plugs, or follow the diagrams?

Last edited by rwaters; 10-25-2005 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 10-25-2005, 07:24 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Which style is your dryer receptacle...

10-30R?


or 14-30R?


You need 2 'hots' to get 240V to the welder. The white wire gets used as a 'hot' (in lieu of the red) in your 10/3 cable.

Green goes to the round prong on the 14-30R.

I won't comment on the 10-30R configuration. AFAIK its a goofball American plug that goes against Code.
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Old 10-25-2005, 07:31 PM   #3 (permalink)
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In a 4-wire 220v black is hot, red is hot, white is neutral, and green is ground.
White neutral is grounded in the service panel so the green is just a backup root to get the power back to ground instead of your body.

Last edited by lagrange151; 10-25-2005 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 10-25-2005, 07:41 PM   #4 (permalink)
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If you use the 3-wire, use the white as your second hot and the green will be the ground/neutral
By the way 220v is just two 110v lines phased opposite of each other, one line is +110v while the other is at -110v. Of corse this swicthes sixty times per second. (60Hz)
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Old 10-25-2005, 08:01 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lagrange151
If you use the 3-wire, use the white as your second hot and the green will be the ground/neutral
By the way 220v is just two 110v lines phased opposite of each other, one line is +110v while the other is at -110v. Of corse this swicthes sixty times per second. (60Hz)
Ok I just plugged everything together. I'm using the 10-30R (3 wire) dryer outlet so I used the green thoughout as the ground (middle round prong or L-shapped prong).

I put everything together, plugged the fawker in and turned it on. The spool worked correctly so I was able to load the wire, I double and tripple checked everything, hooked up the working lead to the piece, turned on the gas and and lit it up. Worked GREAT. I've never used mig, or even wirefeed! I've only used stick a couple of times and just by going by the guide for wirespeed/volts I was able to pull some pretty decent welds in plate.

So I guess this cord I made worked, the welder worked better then I could have expected so I'm pretty happy, cant wait to get some more time with it in the day.

Last edited by rwaters; 10-25-2005 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 10-25-2005, 08:09 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lagrange151
Of corse this swicthes sixty times per second. (60Hz)
Only on this silly continent. The rest of the world is standardized at 50Hz.

Thus concluding electrical trivia for today.
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Old 10-25-2005, 08:15 PM   #7 (permalink)
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60Hz has a better sounding hum
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Old 10-25-2005, 08:46 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I was a little worryed abour 10/3 so i went 6/3 at 50 ft and never once have I had a problem with it boggin down. do you think that 10/3 will be enough?
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Old 10-25-2005, 10:50 PM   #9 (permalink)
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You should see what I run on #12

IIRC the MM175 only pulls ~20A... so 30A wire should be plenty comfortable. But... it also depends on the wire size, and distance, between it and the main panel.
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Old 10-26-2005, 08:49 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtytoy
I was a little worryed abour 10/3 so i went 6/3 at 50 ft and never once have I had a problem with it boggin down. do you think that 10/3 will be enough?

Well the way I see it my miller 175 is rated for a max of 19.5 amps, 10/3 is good way beyond that and everyone I talked to here and at the electric store and the welding shop all said that it will work.

One of the reasons I decided to go with the 175 over the 135 was because either way I would have to run extension cords and the 220v means lower amps to do the same work.

I'm happy I went with 10/3, a 50 foot roll of the stuff is pretty heavy and a pain to work with. (I got SO, so its not that bad). 6/3 would just be stupid heavy IMHO. (on the otherhand as an investment standpoint it would be nice to have a 50 foot 6/3 laying around, that would pretty much run anything you'd need for lite fab)

Last edited by rwaters; 10-26-2005 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 10-26-2005, 10:17 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lagrange151
60Hz has a better sounding hum
Yea, but after having been hit with both @230v... I'd rather get the 50Hz shock. FWIW I ran my MM200 on a 10/3 cord without an issue. I did have an 8/3 lying around for my old Hobart TR250 though, it was heavy and a pain to deal with.
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Old 10-26-2005, 10:26 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwaters
Sorry if this is a dumb question, I just couldnt find anything by searching and I really dont want any unexpected BBQ's.

I'm making an extension cord that will go to my 30 amp dryer outlet for my new miller 175. I have 10/3 with white, green and black. The diagram that came with the 50 amp receptor for my welder says to put the green in the middle. The diagram that came with the 30 amp plug says to put the white wire in the middle.

I'm not quite sure how 220volt electricity works so this is why I have the question. The way I THINK it works is there are 2 wires that are both hot and one that is ground, and the two wires dont matter but the ground must stay the same. The problem is one diagram calls the white wire "neutral", while the other doesnt call the wire anything but talks about a ground.

So, should I keep the white wire in the middle on both plugs, or follow the diagrams?
The difference is this:

- The welder needs 220 VAC plus a ground. It has no need for 120 VAC, thus there is no neutral wire (which is usually "white").

- The dryer, on the other hand, does need 120 VAC in addition to the 220VAC since there are 120 VAC appliances within the dryer (e.g. the light etc.). Therefore it has no ground wire, just the white neutral wire. However, the neutral wire goes directly back to the panel and is connected to the neutral/ground buss, effectively tying (bonding in the NEC venacular) them together.

Neutral wires are designed to have current through them; grounding wires never, then it's called a "short".

Keep the 2 hots together and the neutral and ground together as it appears you have and you should be ok.

My .02.

Merlin
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Old 10-26-2005, 05:34 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Actually no. If you go look in your box you'll see that the white neutrals and the grounds are on the same block (except for sub panels, where they're split). There is no 120VAC need in a 220 dryer. Current code calls for both the ground and the neutral on 220 dryers as a safety precaution (2 paths to ground other than you)
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Last edited by mike; 10-26-2005 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 10-26-2005, 06:38 PM   #14 (permalink)
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you think that is heavy I have 220ft of 6/4 so cord......Haven't hooked it up but have it to run the welder to the driveway, took me and another guy to lift into storage shed...
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Old 10-26-2005, 08:36 PM   #15 (permalink)
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dont you girls work out? my cord is 50ft with ends and all it only weighs maybe 50lbs. I have to use it every time I weld, so i have to run it from the stove to the window and out into my costco tent I weld almost every night.

I will have a 50/80 shop in the next few years though with a house, so its a learning experiance

the new 250syncro wave will be coming next year also
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Old 10-27-2005, 04:43 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike
Actually no. If you go look in your box you'll see that the white neutrals and the grounds are on the same block (except for sub panels, where they're split). There is no 120VAC need in a 220 dryer. Current code calls for both the ground and the neutral on 220 dryers as a safety precaution (2 paths to ground other than you)
Missed this part did you?

"However, the neutral wire goes directly back to the panel and is connected to the neutral/ground buss, effectively tying (bonding in the NEC venacular) them together."

Furthermore, dryers do use 120VAC (or at least used to use) because I've had fuses go out on 220 VAC dryer circuit, the dryer would rotate, the light would work, the but heat wouldn't. Replaced the fuse, for one side of the circuit, and the dryer, all of it worked.

Do a google search on "Hubbell Straight Blade Devices", which should get you to a *.pdf file showing the various circuit diagrams for various power receptables. The NEMA 6-50 three wire grounding connector used by most 220VAC welders (Section W, page W-8) and the NEMA 10-50 3 wire non-grounding connector (page W-9) used by *most* dryers. With the NEMA 10-50, you have access to the 120 VAC legs; with the NEMA 6-50 you don't since you're not supposed to use the grounding wire for current carry.


In any event, as long as he kept the hots connected to the hots and the ground wire connected, he's ok.

Al
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Old 10-27-2005, 04:10 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I recently did exactly this and I will take pictures of all the plugs and recepticals to attach to this thread tommorrow during the day. It is a very easy installation.

30 AMP installation requires the use of 10/3 AWG minimum and for this I reccommend using SOW flexable cable.


120/230VAC outlet to strait 230VAC outlet (both female) which is only rated for 30 AMP service. If you need a 50 Amp line you will have to contact an electrician. Do not exceed 30 Amps on this setup or your putting your life and those who live with you at great risk.


These cost about $15 and can be found in most hardward stores part is known as "range cord replacement" or "dryer cord replacement"




2 hot lines are RED AND BLACK polarity is not sensitive
1 GREEN wire is your Ground
1 WHITE wire is the neutral and it not required for strait 230VAC but it does need to be covered off with a muret and tapped back to avoid any abrasion and sealed in the receptical.


230 male to 230 female (female same as above without the neutral)


Internally it is nearly the same as the one above. The ground is marked with a GREEN screw head and then the other 2 posts are not polarity sensitive and does not matter which 2 you use. Normally they would be RED and BLACK.

I haven't been able to find a better surface receptical yet that I like nor do I like the male plug ends but this is all I could find locally.
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Last edited by Sapper; 10-28-2005 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 10-27-2005, 05:40 PM   #18 (permalink)
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From what you posted I am guessing that you have a 14-30R dryer plug where there are two prongs on the vertical centerline, neutral is in the middle of the plug and has a L shaped blade and ground is on the outside center with a half round pin. A 6-50R receptacle has only the ground on the centerline of the plug with a half round pin.

If your plug and dryer receptacle are the same as the ones pictured put the white and black wires on the straight blades and the green on the half round pin. Do the same with the receptacle you have to plug the welder into and double check with a multimeter for ~240V between the two straight blades and ~120V between either of the straight blades and the half round pin.



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Old 10-28-2005, 12:20 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Pictures added to post above.
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Old 10-28-2005, 03:18 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Let's see.... your welder is designed to be run off a 50 amp receptacle..... and you are going to rig something up to run it off of a 30 amp receptacle.


Yeah, that's smart.
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Old 10-28-2005, 03:55 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianDamage
Let's see.... your welder is designed to be run off a 50 amp receptacle..... and you are going to rig something up to run it off of a 30 amp receptacle.


Yeah, that's smart.

The millermatic 175 that I have only draws 19.5 Amps max so I went overkill on the wire size but you have to size everything based on the potential load it may get from the panel (circuit breaker) not the actual load. IE 30 amp circuit breaker everything has to be rated for 30amps minimum. The plug it comes with is rated for 50AMPS but the wire from the plug into the unit is maybe only 12/3 or 14/3 no where near what the CEC (canadian electrical code requires). Just the plug is over rated for the load requirement.

Not many people will have a welder at home that requires 50 amps and if they do they will need to have a dedicated circuit for it alone and they will want to have it VERY close the panel to sav money on the wire.
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