Electrical WIring from House to Pole Barn Subpanel Questions - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > General Tech > Shop and Tools
Notices

Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-30-2005, 05:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
Lost
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Member # 6426
Location: Midwest
Posts: 624
Electrical WIring from House to Pole Barn Subpanel Questions

I'm working on installing service to my pole building and have a few questions?

The service will be run as a subpanel - 90A breaker coming off of my 200A house feed into a subpanel in the barn. Feed is URD AL, and it is being put into conduit.

County inspector said there's no additional requirements beyond NEC. Forgot to ask the details on these questions and hoping to get this in this weekend.

1) What's the required trench depth? And is to the bottom of the trench or top of the conduit?

2) I'm also putting in a CAT 5 telephone / ethernet line. Should this be put at the same depth as the power lines or at a shallower depth. Are there any requirements?

3) For the conduit in the house & building. Is it OK to use Sch 40? I know 80 is required outside where exposed - not sure about inside.

Thanks!

3)
__________________
Couple of YJ's without leafs.
..and a TJ project in the making
87YJ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-30-2005, 06:01 PM   #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Member # 35820
Location: Celina, TX
Posts: 256
Send a message via AIM to Sound_Man
typically inside a structure has to be in EMT as PVC will put off marful toxins when it burns.


Depth On a service run, which this is, and isn't, needs to be 24" to top of pipe where driven over and 18" otherwise. Typically if you are doing your data and such at hte same time there are no code requirements, but if you run it in the same trench at hte same depth you run the risk of interference, so if in the same trench i would fill halfway then drop the data conduit in the fill the rest of the way


make sure once conduit i in the ground you fill it back in, in some areas, otherwise if it rains, the conduit will "float" to the surface, This also helps if not all to the proper depth, just fill those areas in :-) Backfilled also helps when trying to pull the cable


try to keep as few 90's as possible between LB boxes, also NEC says no more than 4 90's between boxes.

make sure you get a pull line through the pipe, get a good heavy duty pull rope w/ little stretch. to help with this use a shop vac on one end and use kite string with a baggy tied to it on the other end, the nuse the kite string to pull the rope through.

Then lots of tape and lots of lube. When taping the rope to the cables, try to stagger the cables and wrap the rope around hte cable ~2 ft and use lots of tape

just got done with this so any more questions feel free to ask
Sound_Man is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Old 12-30-2005, 06:38 PM   #3 (permalink)
Granite Guru
 
Joey D's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Member # 20053
Location: Arlington MA
Posts: 919
Oversize your pipe runs and use ridged steel 90's. Rope will burn through the PVC 90's on a hard pull.
make sure you backfill around the pipes with sand and bury a caution tape
12" above the pipes
while your running power make sure you run a water line, maybe a gas line. Not sure if needed but think of all the stuff now
__________________
98 K2500 SAS dynatrac pro rock 60, ORD high steer, RCV CV's, arb's front and rear, 4.56 gears
06 D Max Express
Joey D is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-30-2005, 07:23 PM   #4 (permalink)
Lost
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Member # 6426
Location: Midwest
Posts: 624
Thanks for the replies. Helps me feel better about getting into this.

I'm looking at putting the pipe over the cable vs. trying to pull it through (~160' of #2 URD + Ground Lead). Have had a couple contractors I talked with recommend this.

Will put the data line about 1/2 depth. Does it matter if the data conduit is above or below the Red Buried Cable banner?
__________________
Couple of YJ's without leafs.
..and a TJ project in the making
87YJ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-30-2005, 08:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Member # 35820
Location: Celina, TX
Posts: 256
Send a message via AIM to Sound_Man
better to put it below it is jsut there for safety, and your piece of mind, but honestly if we are doing work on a property, we first get lines marked by city then ask home owner, and by the time we see the red tape from what the trencher left behind it's too late :-)


good luck with your thought on putting the pipe over the cable. I do this for a living and well, have fun


pulling through really isn't too hard just one person pulling and one feeding. on lines this size and run length i would use a law tractor, jeep truck winch somehting along those lines to make it easier.


We just did 2/0 - 3 pieces, and ground 250 ft took about 30 minutes to do the pull
Sound_Man is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-30-2005, 11:07 PM   #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Member # 11799
Location: Cleveland, TN
Posts: 1,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by 87YJ
Thanks for the replies. Helps me feel better about getting into this.

I'm looking at putting the pipe over the cable vs. trying to pull it through (~160' of #2 URD + Ground Lead). Have had a couple contractors I talked with recommend this.

Will put the data line about 1/2 depth. Does it matter if the data conduit is above or below the Red Buried Cable banner?
I would put it below the banner if possible. I don't know about the NEC on this, I was told my my utility I had to be 30" because it was driven over. This was full on service entrance. So I put it at +40" and the banner at 18", as per their orders.

Long sweep sch80 90s. My utility required me to bury the conduit FIRST before they would pull. Yes I would have had to dig it up if there was a problem, but then they didn't pull it out of the ground either. They pulled 100' of SE cable in about 15 minutes.

If I had to pull #2 myself, I for damned sure would not pull it but put the conduit on first.

If you have a straight run, you could assemble the whole thing right next to the trench, then drop it in. I assembled my conduit next my trench then dropped it, then they pulled of course. But if I had to pull myself, I would just put it all together first.
rusted is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-31-2005, 03:45 AM   #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Member # 5167
Location: Grass Valley
Posts: 304
Send a message via ICQ to bikebumIII Send a message via Yahoo to bikebumIII
I would assemble the straight line of conduit first, then bury conduit , tape, and so one leaveing the ends unburied, so inspector can measure depth then pull wire through straight conduit, once pulled slip over 90's and glue and screw on the ridgid. This is what I do every day and it will go fast, might not even need soap. If you make up a good head you will be fine on your pull. Have a good pusher and a good puller and it will go fast. go with the depths sound man stated above. and for the phone line or low voltage do like stated above, buring half trench then put in conduit then finish burial. No interference this way, or very little with what you are working with. If you need plumbing do it also so you don't have to dig any future ditches. You can also use larger conduit, for future upgrades, leave a pull string so it will make your life easier down the road...Hope this helps...
__________________
FOR SALE:
Used parachute never opened, small red stain.
bikebumIII is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-31-2005, 12:29 PM   #8 (permalink)
Lost
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Member # 6426
Location: Midwest
Posts: 624
I got the main cable run in today. Not much fun working in the trench / moat on the downhill end. Putting the pipe on the cable went pretty well. I ended up about 24" deep nominal - a few places it rises up to about 20" - so should make Mr inspector happy (this is all through the yard - no drives, etc). I dug the trench with the backhoe, 'cause that's what I could borrow for free. Much wider than needed, but made it easy to work in.

Now I just gotta figure out how to backfill to 1/2 depth without totally tearing up the yard (about 35F very wet ground and rain/snow right now) so I can drop in the caution banner and ethernet line.

Thanks for the suggestions / answers guys!
__________________
Couple of YJ's without leafs.
..and a TJ project in the making

Last edited by 87YJ; 12-31-2005 at 12:31 PM.
87YJ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-03-2006, 12:51 PM   #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Member # 7163
Location: PA
Posts: 1,559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound_Man
typically inside a structure has to be in EMT as PVC will put off marful toxins when it burns.
Is this really the reason? PVC is everywhere, even in roofing materials.
Oxjockey is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-03-2006, 01:23 PM   #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Member # 35820
Location: Celina, TX
Posts: 256
Send a message via AIM to Sound_Man
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxjockey
Is this really the reason? PVC is everywhere, even in roofing materials.


That is what the inspector told me, has to do with wether it is exposed or covered in the wall also
Sound_Man is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-03-2006, 01:48 PM   #11 (permalink)
Rock God
 
Haggar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Member # 11570
Location: Lake Orion, MI
Posts: 2,041
Out of curiousity, is there a reason you piggybacked it off the main house breaker panel?

When I did my garage panel, we ran a feed from the meter to a external fuse box located just below the meter, then from there feed into the conduit that feeds my garage.


The only downside I have to this, is that I'd have liked now to use the garage wiring to backfeed power from my generator to the house in a blackout, which I can't do.
Haggar is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-03-2006, 03:30 PM   #12 (permalink)
Rock God
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Member # 9152
Location: I'm Easy To Find
Posts: 1,247
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar
Out of curiousity, is there a reason you piggybacked it off the main house breaker panel?

When I did my garage panel, we ran a feed from the meter to a external fuse box located just below the meter, then from there feed into the conduit that feeds my garage.


The only downside I have to this, is that I'd have liked now to use the garage wiring to backfeed power from my generator to the house in a blackout, which I can't do.
As long as it isn't a CT meter you could pull the meter and backfeed the house.
__________________
I am ready to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the ordeal of meeting me is another matter.
Winston Churchill
78bronco460 is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2006, 06:06 PM   #13 (permalink)
Lost
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Member # 6426
Location: Midwest
Posts: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound_Man
That is what the inspector told me, has to do with wether it is exposed or covered in the wall also
Talked to my inspector today and he said PVC inside the house was fine. Must be different based on different codes.

Only reason I can give for why I ran a subfeed off of the house panel vs. direct to the meter is that when I talked to a couple of electrician friends, that's how they told me to do it. Never thought abour direct to the meter. Wouldn't you have to have the electric company get involved if you were messing with the meter?
__________________
Couple of YJ's without leafs.
..and a TJ project in the making
87YJ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2006, 06:18 PM   #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Member # 63181
Posts: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by 87YJ
I got the main cable run in today. Not much fun working in the trench / moat on the downhill end. Putting the pipe on the cable went pretty well. I ended up about 24" deep nominal - a few places it rises up to about 20" - so should make Mr inspector happy (this is all through the yard - no drives, etc). I dug the trench with the backhoe, 'cause that's what I could borrow for free. Much wider than needed, but made it easy to work in.

Now I just gotta figure out how to backfill to 1/2 depth without totally tearing up the yard (about 35F very wet ground and rain/snow right now) so I can drop in the caution banner and ethernet line.

Thanks for the suggestions / answers guys!

Okay. Since you used a backhoe and have a wider trench, you can solve all problems easily...

First, lay the power on one side of the ditch, and the phone on the other side. This should be enough separation. (technically shouldn't matter with cat5e, but that's not important right now. )

Then, get a bunch of golf tees and peg the caution tape to the side of the trench above the power line.

Then backfill, carefully. One step, quicker, and easier. This is how we do it out here regularly and it works out good.


Oh, and hello, Pirate. Nice to meet all of you.

Last edited by KevinRM; 01-05-2006 at 06:20 PM.
KevinRM is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

** A VERIFICATION EMAIL IS SENT TO THIS ADDRESS TO COMPLETE REGISTRATION!! **

Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.