Shop lighting - again - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > General Tech > Shop and Tools
Notices

Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-17-2009, 07:21 PM   #1 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
Mechanos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Member # 6704
Location: Roosterville, Missouri
Posts: 6,987
Shop lighting - again

I'm going to be lighting a 40' x 40' area of my shop with 14' walls. I had one of the EE's at work use a lighting program to layout some lights. He used a recommended value of 50 foot-candles for "workshop" lighting and ran the program for flourescent lights. The program spit out a layout of where the lights should be placed based on two-tube 8' fixtures rated at 9200 lumens each.... 9 fixtures total.

Seems like a viable layout, but I'm still kind of considering using 4 metal halide lights as the main lighting along with a few flourescent fixtures here and there for fill in lighting and to have some lights that come on instantly if I'm just making a quick in-and-out trip to the shop and for lighting over workbenches, etc.

Anyone here go with metal halide lights and wish they hadn't? Any flourescent lights I use will be the type with the electronic ballasts so they won't be affected by the cold. The EE I talked to told me that the metal halides would probably be for effecient to operate.
__________________
It's
IHeavy
aka TORC
KC0UIC
-.- -.-. ----- ..- .. -.-.

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Mechanos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2009, 08:33 PM   #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Member # 80279
Location: In the trees
Posts: 298
With MH expect alot of shaddows.... nuff said. I had them and took them out for cfl's
Cork is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 12-17-2009, 09:12 PM   #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Member # 105472
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 67
I used some 8 foot high output flourescents from home depot i put 6 in my 30x30 shop and i have plenty of light. I paid 50 per fixture plus the bulbs. They light up in cold temps.
wickedinhere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2009, 09:43 PM   #4 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
Pook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Member # 3370
Location: BC CANADA
Posts: 6,539
I would lay it out based on work areas. Why waste light in a storage area?

In my main work area 24x40 I have 6x 8' HO flourescents, 3 over top of my 5x10 welding table(lighting up the area all around it), 2 over top of the floor space where I work on projects like my buggy and customer jobs, and the other one over top of my some of metal working equipment.

I have pallet racking on two walls so there was no point having lights within 6' of those walls.

I recommend hanging them on fixture chain and leavign some slack so you can raise and lower the lights. I keep the lights over top of my welding table lower most of the time.


I would think 4 metal halides won't be enough in an area that wide with that low of a ceiling.
__________________

Last edited by Pook; 12-17-2009 at 09:44 PM.
Pook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2009, 10:24 PM   #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Member # 103610
Location: Dayton Ohio
Posts: 2,294
Send a message via AIM to jeep937
I just pick up a coupe 4 footers at Lowes every time I'm there. Put them where you need. You're way ahead of me with some fancy program.
jeep937 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2009, 06:02 AM   #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Member # 29638
Location: CP, NY
Posts: 500
Send a message via AIM to MuddyV8YJ
put lots of switches in. many times you'll be working on a project in 1 corner and not need to pay the bill of lighting the whole place.
__________________
"Life's tough. It's tougher if you're stupid."

[QUOTE=Grim Reaper]Cause of death: Natural selection. :laughing: [/QUOTE]

Girls fake orgasms, guys fake relationships
MuddyV8YJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2009, 06:20 AM   #7 (permalink)
Dabbler
 
actionpaintball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Member # 29562
Location: Southeast VA
Posts: 1,187
Send a message via AIM to actionpaintball
I have a 40x40 with 12 foot eaves. I have 4 metal halides (hung at about 18’) . The interior of my garage is white metal. I have them switched in pairs (20x40 bays) and rarely have to turn the other two on (non-working/storage side)...I have mixed fluorescents for the high traffic work benches/areas-its a good combination and I would do the exact same setup again. I also have 8 "skylight" panels...can work almost any day when its light out without the halides on. When we were building my shop-I just kept on eye out on craigslist and picked up the new halides for $40 each with bulb new in the box, and got some discounted commercial 4' fluorescents. I highly recommend holding out for commercial style light fixtures. I have a bank of four rechargeable LED drop lights for undercarriage and engine work-you almost always supplement a job with another light anyway-the key is mixing the light types-especially as you spend more time in a shop.
actionpaintball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2009, 06:56 AM   #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Member # 23027
Location: Morrison, CO
Posts: 105
I recently finished installing fixtures in my 20x20 garage with an 8' ceiling. I installed a total of 32 4' 32WT8 lamps and I wouldn't think using of anything less. I even have 6 of the fixtures installed in corners of the ceilings at 45 angles to maximize the usefulness of the light.

I had the fixtures built with high ballast factor ballasts to "overdrive" the lamps for maximum light output. With your higher ceilings you will be able to get away with comparatively less since you will have a better dispersion angle.

Take my advice - I researched this long and hard and talked to many knowledgable suppliers about it - your most cost effective solution is the 4' 32W T8 lamps. Buy fixtures with quality ballasts and use a good lamp, 850 series or better. I spent a lot of money for my lighting but I'm happy with it. Several fixture manufacturers (ones that make utility fixtures) to try are H.E. Williams, Creative Illumination, and Lithonia.
CAC91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2009, 07:33 AM   #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Member # 12499
Location: In a Snap-On truck tryin' to make it pay
Posts: 10,870
When I moved into my shop, it was lit by 200 watt incandescent lamps. I was scared to death of fire!

I replaced them all with CFLs. I added fluorescent fixtures everywhere I could.

Monday, the lighting fairy came to visit. I don't know how many metal halide light fixtures were delivered, but they are mostly new in the box 250 watt low bay fixtures.

I'm looking forward to being able to see! I figure two over the lift, one in front, one in the dead bay and two upstairs-might also add some heat!
PTSchram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2009, 07:37 AM   #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Member # 55396
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 148
The software and EE probably know more than you, so why are you second guessing it/them?
Unless you asked an idiot to use a shitty software program for you, there is no reason not to listen to them (of course that would also have been a complete waste of time too)

Most metal hallides I've seen are usually in higher ceiling buildings (20' +), and personally the light they put out messes with my eyes sometimes. I also like the HO flourescents b/c they are easy to find/buy & fix.
__________________
-94-ish XJ 4.0 non-HO; locked, caged, dash/acc delete pkg -SOLD
-87 XJ woody budget beater - SOLD

Last edited by WTF?; 12-18-2009 at 12:02 PM.
WTF? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2009, 07:57 AM   #11 (permalink)
Rock God
 
MudzerK5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Member # 11249
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,679
The flourescent lighting layout equates to 2.77 watts per square foot, which is definitely in line for your 50 footcandles. I have a 30x40 shop and have 4 - 8 foot strips (4 bulbs total) and it lights up my shop fairly good. I also have white walls. I do plan to install a few more lights to get a little more out of it. Might even go with a bulb change, as I have cheap ass T12 lamps in mine currently.
__________________
Read what I've learned about the Baileigh Industrial TN-250 I won here on Pirate4x4!
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...=tn+250+review

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverZuk View Post
"I did it mainly because my 5 year old daughter thanks a Pink Cow is pretty funny!"
MudzerK5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2009, 08:02 AM   #12 (permalink)
D60
Zeus of the Sluice
 
D60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Member # 6398
Location: CO
Posts: 3,626
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTF? View Post
I also like the HO flourescents b/c they are easy to find/buy & fix.
That's pretty much my thing, too. Readily avail at the box stores, inexpensive, and my HD HO's have been quite durable and dependable IMO. They start up in the cold, and there's one that has never liked the cold and buzzes everytime, but after a few minutes of operation it stabilizes and works great. Has done this from day 1, going on 4 years now.

Also the flo's have a variety of mounting options. You can screw 'em to the ceiling, to the wall, or hang them from chain.
__________________
You know it gets better, so of course it gets worse.
D60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2009, 08:03 AM   #13 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
Mechanos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Member # 6704
Location: Roosterville, Missouri
Posts: 6,987
I'm currently looking at some 6 tube, 4', T8HO fixtures with 6500K tubes.
__________________
It's
IHeavy
aka TORC
KC0UIC
-.- -.-. ----- ..- .. -.-.

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Mechanos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2009, 11:28 AM   #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member # 118363
Posts: 200
If you want to figure about how many fixtures you'll need you can use something like this.
http://www.hewilliams.com/Layouts/index.asp

Pretty easy to use and should get you close to the correct quantity. I think that Cooper Lighting has a similar setup, but I couldn't find it, you might be able to select metal halide fixtures with it.

Found it. It's by the actual model number of each product page, just click on the calculator. Lumark Lighting has high and low bay metal halide fixtures.

Last edited by xj42; 12-18-2009 at 11:32 AM.
xj42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2009, 01:06 PM   #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Member # 147348
Posts: 141
try this thread for some differant ideas. I have 3 1000w MH low bays in my 30X40, I hate them and will be changing them soon. A buddy suggested direct wiring the socket of the low bay fixture and installing a 108w (=400w MH)CFL in the fixture utilizing the reflecter, sounds good to me.

I want to add 6 more of the same 108w CFLs around the perimter to nix the shadows.
CarterKaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2009, 01:30 PM   #16 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
Mechanos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Member # 6704
Location: Roosterville, Missouri
Posts: 6,987
I had to run one of our fleet vehicles down the maintenance garage and I took a good look at the lighting layout in the service bays. There were an assload of MH laid out what I thought was surpising close to each other and I was not impressed with the lighting and all the hard shadows. Pretty sure now that I do not want to go with MH and am probably going to go with 6 of the 6 lamp, 4' 6500K Daylight fixtures.

The lighting layout link above was helpful. I had the layout correct in on dimension, but the layout link suggested a slightly different spacing in the other direction.

I'll start with that, and if I need a little more light in certain workbench areas, etc, I'll an addition 2 lamp 4' fixture here and there. Maybe set some up as wall-washes since the walls are white.
__________________
It's
IHeavy
aka TORC
KC0UIC
-.- -.-. ----- ..- .. -.-.

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Mechanos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2009, 04:55 PM   #17 (permalink)
Rock God
 
BIGSTIC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Member # 5538
Location: Fawking ND
Posts: 1,603
Send a message via AIM to BIGSTIC Send a message via Yahoo to BIGSTIC
I would stay away from MH in a 14' ceiling.

We lit a 40 x 40 with 16' ceiling about 2 years ago with 9 - 4' x 4 lamp - T5. Place was bright. The guy loved them so much we put T5's all over his property.

Just did a remodel at an engineering firm and the lighting rep sent the wrong fixtures. He couldnt return them and gave the wrong ones to us. I have 48 single lamp 4' T5 complete fixtures. My garage is gonna be brighter than the sun lol
__________________

Click Above ^^^^^^


"In America, we like everyone to know what we are doing anonymously" Jay Leno

For the best deal on 8 lug disc brakes click here--> www.lugnut4x4.com
BIGSTIC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2009, 09:02 PM   #18 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Member # 53596
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 870
Send a message via MSN to PhantomEB
Myself I have found runnin the outside lights (ones closer to the walls) closer to the walls eliminated shadows while workin on the rig.

I agree run zones on switches, I have mine, set up as frontal area in front of the vehicles and more likely where I am workin on one, and the ones beside and above the trucks on another. Still need to add in one more 8 foot dual bulb fixture in between the trucks (double garage 22x24) and not sure which zone its goin on, both zones run 4 double bulb fixtures and this whill change it up to one 4 and one 5.

I love my setup as is, feels like a little comfy cave while workin in front of the trucks but when I need to work on the trucks, not much for shadows.

Still need to paint the walls white too, that will brighten the place up for minimal cost.
__________________
CrawlinBC.com:smokin:
PhantomEB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2009, 07:19 AM   #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Realsquash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Member # 2578
Location: SE WI
Posts: 776
Send a message via Yahoo to Realsquash
You can download the lighting software for free from http://www.visual-3d.com/Software/Ba...px?SessionID=0. I used it for my shop rebuild last winter. Here's a pic of the output of the program for my shop:



I targeted 100fc. 50fc is just not enough for me. I also painted my walls with satin white exterior paint. I used Lithonia (Home Depot) 32 watt T8 8-foot long fixtures. They hold 4 T8 bulbs-2 wide and 2 long. You'll find the most bang for the buck is the 2x2 configuration. I have 48 bulbs burning away.

I placed my lights only a few inches from the walls to maximum reflection from the walls. My shop is 35x25 or so with 10' ceilings. I love the lighting, no way would I change it. There are almost no shadows, either. This is a photo I took recently without the flash...



I wired them up in an interleaved fashion. One switch flips every other light on, the other gets the rest. That way you can do some maintenance with lights on if you need to. You'll also find out that fluorescents are just about the cheapest to light. My entire shop uses like 13 amps for all of the lights to be on.

Here's a shop photo:



Andy
Realsquash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2009, 09:51 AM   #20 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Member # 53596
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 870
Send a message via MSN to PhantomEB
Very nice, I admit I am jealous! Gonna aim for the 100 too but that be after I get the rig done for now.

I always said its my life dream to attract aliens down by openin the big door and turnin the lights on.
__________________
CrawlinBC.com:smokin:

Last edited by PhantomEB; 12-19-2009 at 09:52 AM.
PhantomEB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2009, 01:20 PM   #21 (permalink)
unimogken
 
unimogken's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Member # 11745
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 1,265
Thanks for that lighting program Realsquash! It will come in handy in a couple rooms that i'm going to redo here.

Nice garage setup by the way!
__________________
Later, Ken
1 Mercedes Benz Unimog 404s
unimogken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 07:13 AM   #22 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
Mechanos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Member # 6704
Location: Roosterville, Missouri
Posts: 6,987
Well, after running some numbers, anyway I look at it, it's going to cost a an arm & a leg to light my shop space to a "acceptable" level.
__________________
It's
IHeavy
aka TORC
KC0UIC
-.- -.-. ----- ..- .. -.-.

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Mechanos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 07:24 AM   #23 (permalink)
Dabbler
 
actionpaintball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Member # 29562
Location: Southeast VA
Posts: 1,187
Send a message via AIM to actionpaintball
My 40x40 was done with $300 in lighting and maybe another $200 for armored cable and switches. Just check ebay and CL for warehouse lighting.
actionpaintball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 08:46 AM   #24 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Member # 8916
Location: KC MO
Posts: 368
I'm not a fan of MH lighting because the color rendition is not very good and they cycle at 60hz which bugs me as I see the flicker. Plus they are too bright if you happen to look straight at one. In my shop I just use a bunch of cfl's. More where I work and less where I don't. I had a local metal spinning joint make me some reflectors out of the thinnest aluminum possible. They're about 4" deep and about 14" in dia and cost me about $3/ea. One of those along with a $1.50 ceramic socket makes one 26 watt fixture. I seem to be able to find inexpensive cfl's and the local utility discounts them once a year so I stock up at an average of about $1.50/ea. GE and Phillips both make nice ones. I know they make 42 watt cfl's now but they are always an off brand and very high priced so I pass. If you are a cheap bastard like me you might want to try them. I have a local Habitat Restore where I get my plastic boxes,switches, and conduit used for almost nothing so a guess that adds to the cost.


If it's a rare day at ten below or something the lights don't ever warm up but them I don't want to be outside anyway.

Last edited by roverjohn; 12-21-2009 at 09:01 AM.
roverjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 09:54 AM   #25 (permalink)
Granite Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Member # 22301
Location: B'more, MD
Posts: 831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanos View Post
Well, after running some numbers, anyway I look at it, it's going to cost a an arm & a leg to light my shop space to a "acceptable" level.
50 is a lowish target, we build labs (at work) and shoot for 80-100.

Seems like you are on the right track...is 50 to expensive?

have you tried to look at maybe a lower color temp but higher lumen output? mcmaster shows 4' t12's at 3600 lumens each, they are 40 watt bulbs.

right now i'm going through trying to meet 80-100 with LED's...talk about an arm and a leg, just glad they aren't mine
phillyzj is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.