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Old 08-06-2010, 04:44 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Red face Hydraulic Guys....

So, I`m in the process of purchasing a tractor, and I already have a HF Press beefed up, and modified.... Air over hydro, 20 Ton, boxed frame, gussets, etc, works great for what it is. Next up is to replace the arbor plates, and brace it a lil more. But, now I got thinking....

I have access to some I-Beams, and Hydro Rams are not too much money.. How can I determine what I can run off my remote / aux. tractor hydraulic system? I don't need big-power press very often but having one to bend 1/2" plate for some tractor mods would be

I want to know the same thing for making my own log-splitter too.
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Old 08-06-2010, 05:19 PM   #2 (permalink)
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your tractor is basically a hydraulic pump that you drive around. the possibilities are end less. a hydraulic press and log splitter could be the same piece with a few mods.
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Old 08-06-2010, 05:21 PM   #3 (permalink)
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your tractor is basically a hydraulic pump that you drive around. the possibilities are end less. a hydraulic press and log splitter could be the same piece with a few mods.
That part I do understand

I`m wondering how to Convert GPM available at the tractor and PSI to speed of ram movement vs ram size, and tonnage of pressure exerted by RAM.

IE: I don't mind a slow-ass press if it's powerful, but a SLOW log splitter would SUCK. I also don't want a log splitter that's very fast but has trouble with madrone or oak. Thus why I want to know how to calculate my available power @ xSeconds an inch.

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Old 08-06-2010, 05:37 PM   #4 (permalink)
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We need specs of the tractors hydraulic pump and what ram you are looking into.
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Old 08-06-2010, 05:42 PM   #5 (permalink)
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We need specs of the tractors hydraulic pump and what ram you are looking into.
Not looking to have to ask someone everytime I want specs...

I figured there was a formula

Tractor Pump Total Capacity: 26.7 GPM
Front / Rear Remotes 16.1 gpm


Thanks
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Old 08-06-2010, 05:45 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Not looking to have to ask someone everytime I want specs...

I figured there was a formula

Tractor Pump Total Capacity: 26.7 GPM
Front / Rear Remotes 16.1 gpm


Thanks
What pressure?
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Old 08-06-2010, 06:15 PM   #7 (permalink)
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http://www.baumhydraulics.com/calculators/cyl_calc.htm

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=...8&fr=yfp-t-701

theres a calculator for every thing on the internet.
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Old 08-06-2010, 06:16 PM   #8 (permalink)
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http://www.baumhydraulics.com/calculators/cyl_speed.htm
speed of a cylinder
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Old 08-06-2010, 06:40 PM   #9 (permalink)
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what tractor are you buying that does 16gpm through the remotes?
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Old 08-06-2010, 06:59 PM   #10 (permalink)
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what tractor are you buying that does 16gpm through the remotes?
Kubota M59

From Kubota Site:
Total Pump Capacity 26.7 gpm
Includes Power Steering
BH Boom Swing Pump 9.5 gpm
Front / Rear Remotes 16.1 gpm

They are not showing the PSI, so I can't answer that right now as I don't have the manual.
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Old 08-06-2010, 07:58 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Kubota M59


Very nice choice, all of our TLB's and skiploaders are Kubota's here at the rental yard. We've got an L48 now, been looking at the M59, since the L45 is a tinker toy compared to those two.

... and I wanna see how this hydraulic experiment pans out...
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Old 08-06-2010, 08:01 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Very nice choice, all of our TLB's and skiploaders are Kubota's here at the rental yard. We've got an L48 now, been looking at the M59, since the L45 is a tinker toy compared to those two.

... and I wanna see how this hydraulic experiment pans out...
Yeah, I was looking at the L45 too but side by side it's tiny looking. Power wise it probably could have worked fine for me but the price point to increase 15hp was a no brainer larger BH among others.

Any issues I should be aware of with the Kubotas in general? Certain pins requiring more lube than others, or anything to just generally be aware of?
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Old 08-06-2010, 08:02 PM   #13 (permalink)
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In broad terms, psi of your system x area of the cylinder = tonnage of the cylinder.

So, a 4000 psi system hooked to a 2" cylinder would be:
4000 x 3.14 x 1^2 = 12k# = 6 tons.
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Old 08-06-2010, 08:20 PM   #14 (permalink)
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we use the Kubota's B21's and the L48 for rental use... Really no problems, and that is in FULL ON, "beat the hell out of it because it's a rental" use...

Sometimes the forward/reverse switch gets dirt in it and can make it difficult to start if you dont push the pedal one way or the other.

Another issue the B21's have is the engine shutoff solenoid goes out periodically... I dont know if they changed to a heavier duty version in the bigger engines or not, but if the engines cranks and starts, but shuts off as soon as you release the key... that's it.

Clutches last us about 3-4 yrs of use, about 2k hours or so..(on the B21's) but this is with brush mower use as well... and rental customers...

The M59 should have really stout equipment under it, just like the L48. We had an issue, on the L48, where the dealer hooked up the hydraulic tilts for the scraper incorrectly and that scattered a hydraulic pump, but that was under warranty.

If you wash the tractor frequently, make sure to blow the alternator, fuse block, and other electrical out with air. I doubt you will use yours like we do though.

Always make sure to grease your front 4 pins on the loader, and any pins that get in the dirt on the 'hoe. Every 8 hrs of use is recommended, and I would follow that. The other pins can go a bit longer, depending on usage.

Keep up on your maintenance... It's easy to write the hours and date on the end of the filter... that way you can remember to change them when it's up.

Clean your radiator and screens religiously if you use a mower in the dust and weeds.

I cant think of much else right now... They are REALLY solid tractors.
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Old 08-06-2010, 09:55 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jason Lister View Post
we use the Kubota's B21's and the L48 for rental use... Really no problems, and that is in FULL ON, "beat the hell out of it because it's a rental" use...

Sometimes the forward/reverse switch gets dirt in it and can make it difficult to start if you dont push the pedal one way or the other.

Another issue the B21's have is the engine shutoff solenoid goes out periodically... I dont know if they changed to a heavier duty version in the bigger engines or not, but if the engines cranks and starts, but shuts off as soon as you release the key... that's it.

Clutches last us about 3-4 yrs of use, about 2k hours or so..(on the B21's) but this is with brush mower use as well... and rental customers...

The M59 should have really stout equipment under it, just like the L48. We had an issue, on the L48, where the dealer hooked up the hydraulic tilts for the scraper incorrectly and that scattered a hydraulic pump, but that was under warranty.

If you wash the tractor frequently, make sure to blow the alternator, fuse block, and other electrical out with air. I doubt you will use yours like we do though.

Always make sure to grease your front 4 pins on the loader, and any pins that get in the dirt on the 'hoe. Every 8 hrs of use is recommended, and I would follow that. The other pins can go a bit longer, depending on usage.

Keep up on your maintenance... It's easy to write the hours and date on the end of the filter... that way you can remember to change them when it's up.

Clean your radiator and screens religiously if you use a mower in the dust and weeds.

I cant think of much else right now... They are REALLY solid tractors.
Thanks for the info, glad to talk to someone who is around them for high hours

I plan on using Greem Grease since it's been good to me in the 4x4 vehicles..
http://www.greengrease.net/kitinfo/A...in1PROKIT.html anything better you guys have found?

Any specific spot you guys get your filters from @ a discount?
Are you running the Kubota or a replacement?
Same with oil, what's working / lasting the best?


No mower, but up here we have silty dirt that gets through everything it seems. I got it with the pre-filter to hopefully help with this. It's some nasty stuff, after my last rental 8hr day my shirts, and jeans were stained with the fine-ground powder clay

Any standard customizations you guys do to make things stronger or more useful?
Or that you have found are a great benefit to have...

Right now I`m planning on supporting top of bucket with some 1/4" or 3/8" plate, or ?, whichever I have in 84" length and adding 4 3/8 weld-on chain hooks, and a receiver in the center of the bucket (on top) for other misc attachments/usages. Some 20mm & 50cal ammo cans where I can fit them for chain, strap, misc storage. Possibly extra work-lights depending on how well the 2 front 2 back "Work Lights" package from KUbota works. Adding 2 3/8" weld-on chain hooks to back/upper of the BH bucket. Will bend up a hood guard out of some tube I have too.

Have you guys put chain hooks on a 4n1 bucket? Can they handle that? I realize now I don't have enough hooks for both buckets...

Thanks for the info.
-Todd
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Old 08-06-2010, 11:54 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Thanks for the info, glad to talk to someone who is around them for high hours

I plan on using Greem Grease since it's been good to me in the 4x4 vehicles..
http://www.greengrease.net/kitinfo/A...in1PROKIT.html anything better you guys have found?
We are using the Lucas Red N Tacky... pretty much anything that stays tacky seems to work. I am sure Greem will be fine.

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Any specific spot you guys get your filters from @ a discount?
Are you running the Kubota or a replacement?
Same with oil, what's working / lasting the best?
We just use Napa filters, after the warranty expires. You need to use OEM filters until the warranty is up. We've had problems with that in the past. Oil, we run Delo 400... 15w-40.


Quote:
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No mower, but up here we have silty dirt that gets through everything it seems. I got it with the pre-filter to hopefully help with this. It's some nasty stuff, after my last rental 8hr day my shirts, and jeans were stained with the fine-ground powder clay
We have the same stuff here We are about 2500 ft elevation in the mountains south of Yosemite. Make sure to clean your air filters regularly. Knock them out first, gently, then blow them off, gently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd W View Post
Any standard customizations you guys do to make things stronger or more useful?
Or that you have found are a great benefit to have...
I just rebuilt the pos Gearmore scraper that we have for the L48. I would highly suggest NOT getting a floating tailboard. We didnt even get asked when we bought the tractor and now we are finding that you lose a substantial amount of strength with that design. We had the whole front cutting edge get folded under the scraper. Of course, this is from abuse by the customer, but we have NEVER had this kind of issue with a Gearmore scraper on our B21's.

Now that I think about this... I should take some pics of the scraper setup. I reinforced it ALOT to deal with the abuse it gets handed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd W View Post
Right now I`m planning on supporting top of bucket with some 1/4" or 3/8" plate, or ?, whichever I have in 84" length and adding 4 3/8 weld-on chain hooks, and a receiver in the center of the bucket (on top) for other misc attachments/usages. Some 20mm & 50cal ammo cans where I can fit them for chain, strap, misc storage. Possibly extra work-lights depending on how well the 2 front 2 back "Work Lights" package from KUbota works. Adding 2 3/8" weld-on chain hooks to back/upper of the BH bucket. Will bend up a hood guard out of some tube I have too.

Have you guys put chain hooks on a 4n1 bucket? Can they handle that? I realize now I don't have enough hooks for both buckets...

Thanks for the info.
-Todd
That sounds like a good plan. I would definitely support the top of the bucket. I think it's only 1/8". We didnt go for the 4n1 bucket. We got the skid steer style attachment, but not the front hydros. Simple is better sometimes, with our business.

The lights are really pretty good. I stole a set off another Kubota for our delivery truck's backup lights.

Personally, I like D-rings alot better than chain hooks.

We cant modify too many things on our tractors because of liability reasons and customers, but all your mods sound like great ideas.

Jason
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Old 08-07-2010, 09:28 AM   #17 (permalink)
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If you want to run your log splitter from the splitter and not the tractor seat, I'd plumb a remote outlet to a regular detented log splitter valve and just bungee cord the remote valve open and run the splitter valve right at the splitter, that is what we do on the inlaws 706D Farmall. Works great!
Figure out your cylinder speed from the formulas already given and put the biggest, nastiest cylinder on the splitter you can find that'll do what you want it to do. If you are going to get into some twisted grain wood, you may want to give up some speed for power.
If you get 16 gpm from the outlet, you will not have a slow speed issue!
Also, even if you (try to) cut your stuff to 18" or 20" or even 24" length, get a 36" stroke cylinder if you can. I've never heard someone cussing because they have too much stroke, but a guy gets mighty pissed when you have to fire up the saw to hack a piece in half to make it fit because it will not fit in the splitter! BTDT.
Wish I had your tractor !!!!
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Old 08-07-2010, 05:19 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Old 08-07-2010, 06:36 PM   #19 (permalink)
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i have a kubota l4400, and though a bit smaller than yours, its been a wonderful machine. i bought kubota b/c of their bulletproof engines that come in bobcat equipment, which i had seen in the rental equipment field as a tech. there was no way i was paying $$$$$ for a yanmar painted green. my machine is a very basic, no frills, utility machine. i use kubota filters until the warranty runs out. i have read and heard that hydrostat machines are very particular about their hydraulic fluid, namely "super UDT" as being the only acceptible oil. since mine is gear drive, and basically no different than a tractor made 60 years ago, i went with TSC tractor hydraulic/trans oil and its been fine. i have about 180hrs on mine, and it has not had one issue. it is a great snow removal machine, tow truck, forklift, frame straigtener, bead breaker, jack, crane, manlift, etc
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Old 08-07-2010, 06:38 PM   #20 (permalink)
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i have a kubota l4400, and though a bit smaller than yours, its been a wonderful machine. i bought kubota b/c of their bulletproof engines that come in bobcat equipment, which i had seen in the rental equipment field as a tech. there was no way i was paying $$$$$ for a yanmar painted green. my machine is a very basic, no frills, utility machine. i use kubota filters until the warranty runs out. i have read and heard that hydrostat machines are very particular about their hydraulic fluid, namely "super UDT" as being the only acceptible oil. since mine is gear drive, and basically no different than a tractor made 60 years ago, i went with TSC tractor hydraulic/trans oil and its been fine. i have about 180hrs on mine, and it has not had one issue. it is a great snow removal machine, tow truck, forklift, frame straigtener, bead breaker, jack, crane, manlift, etc
Sounds good

Post up some pics sometime of all those uses
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Old 08-08-2010, 05:31 AM   #21 (permalink)
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The tractor hydraulic system will be around 2500-3200 PSI, which is a bit much for that cylinder.
I think the 20 ton cylinder is around 4.5 inches in diameter, so it has an area of 23.75 sq in.
To get 20 tons out of it, it would require 1684 PSI.
You will nearly be doubling that, I doubt the Chinese had much of a safety factor on their cylinder, I would be scared to be anywhere near it.
You could get a pressure reducing valve, but I wouldn't bother.

It would be more of a pain to position the tractor, get off tractor, hook up lines, position part, get on tractor to run the hydraulics, get off tractor to look at part, get back on tractor to run hydraulics, ect.

I would look for a used power pack, or get an air over hyd cylinder.

Kubotas are great little machines...until they break. I have found it nearly impossible to get any part that isn't a maint. item. It usually turns into a 2-3 month wait. I will never own another one just because of their product support network.
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Old 08-08-2010, 09:38 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Holy fawk I'd love an M59. We rented one once w backhoe attachment and it was great. Had it for two days and maxed out the 16 hours we were allowed on the meter.

We've only got an L2800......a baby compared to what you're looking at. It's handy as hell, use it for everything. I've done virtually nothing to it, except maybe grease the loader pins twice in 220 hours (all that we have on it).

I bought a Kubota filter but have yet to change the oil. Manual calls for 10W-30 in all temps, but I'll be damned if I can find diesel oil in 10W-30 around here. It does turn over real slow on the cold winter days here, so I think 10W-30 would be better than 15W-40..............?
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:44 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Kubotas are great little machines...until they break. I have found it nearly impossible to get any part that isn't a maint. item. It usually turns into a 2-3 month wait. I will never own another one just because of their product support network.
We've ordered ALOT of parts over the years, never waited that long. Maybe 2-3 weeks if it had to come from Japan. However, Kubota has a large distribution warehouse in Lodi, so that may have something to do with our fast service on parts.
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Old 08-08-2010, 05:55 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Sounds good

Post up some pics sometime of all those uses
heres a few, since-you-was askin'--dont know what i'd do w/out it.....



tow truck



forklift



snowplow
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Old 08-09-2010, 05:43 AM   #25 (permalink)
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IE: I don't mind a slow-ass press if it's powerful, but a SLOW log splitter would SUCK. I also don't want a log splitter that's very fast but has trouble with madrone or oak. Thus why I want to know how to calculate my available power @ xSeconds an inch.

That is what 2 stage pumps are for. The ram moves fast and has some power, when it gets to a hard spot, the other stage kicks in and you go to slow and powerfull.

There is another pump that I can think of the name for, but pricer, that the a plate tilts back in fourth, so it is kind of like having a variable stage.
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