4 Link critique

weps · 06-11-2003, 08:48 PM

I have read ALOT about front 4 links, and have come to this point in my mock up (see pics) Keep in mind that at some point in time perfect placement must be compromised due to pesky items like the engine block, starter, and where to hang a Driveshaft.. Heres a run down... 2x3x .187 frame, 350 TBI,TH350, 203-205 and 404 Mogs on Hummer Rims with 42" swampers.TJ tub and 107" WB. I will be installing Johnny joints on the frame ends of the links (vs the wire ties)

I asked for the critique, lets have it..LINK PICS

WEPS

weps · 06-11-2003, 08:50 PM

And another looking down...TOP of Links

WEPS

twinpinion · 06-11-2003, 08:57 PM

All the anti-squat, weight transfer tech doesn't work for the front axle the same as the rear. From what I have played with that would be a killer rear set up if that's the actual height it will sit at. It should work fine in your front end too but it may dive when you get on the brakes hard. Making the front links more parralel has helped keep mine from diving. If you don't plan on going fast don't worry about it. Weld it up.

weps · 06-11-2003, 09:17 PM

Thanks, I can move the top link up a bit more to get it more parallel. I was trying to consider the torque rotation difference of the Portal vs. "regular" axle, and was trying to get some more preload that way... Yes, that is pretty much the set ride height. Top link is 34" lower is 32" vert. separation is "around" 9"

WEPS

larryboy · 06-11-2003, 09:29 PM

side view for all to see.

Gen. Nonsense · 06-11-2003, 10:15 PM

Looks like a good start. I want to coil my Scout sooooobad but I have a major lack of funds

Oh well when the time is right.

Keep on updating.

Air Ride · 06-11-2003, 10:21 PM

more separation at the frame will also help keep your steering geometry more correct though the full range of travel. looks good

TNToy · 06-11-2003, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by larryboy
side view for all to see.

The lower link looks really short in that pic. Move the rear mount of the upp link so it's pretty close to horizontal... it appears in those pics that you'd get a lot of pinion-angle change as the suspension cycled, due to the difference in link lengths, and how close they mount @ the frame.

weps · 06-12-2003, 11:01 AM

I did some adjusting this a.m., and can easily get the top link horizontal. This may shorten it up to about 32" and be the same (or darn close)to the lowers length. 260 views and no ones kicking me in the bag?

Could it be all of the reading (Including the "god of suspension" thread) is paying off?

Come on PIG, and TPIjeep....I'm hoping the day crew will check this out. For me, its bedtime!

WEPS

WikdWaze · 06-12-2003, 01:19 PM

What size tubing did you use? looks beefy.

Sean · 06-12-2003, 01:44 PM

This isn't a critique. From what I can tell (admittedly I don't know much about 4 links) it looks kick ass.

I have more of a question/observation.

I notice your upper link when veiwed from the side angles down from the axle toward the frame. It sounds like a few of the respondents feel that will cause excessive pinion rotation throught the travel of the suspension.

What I've noticed is that John Gilleland's buggy (and the Karnivore copys by Avalanche) do their links the same way, although they look as if the upper link is still angled downward but just not quite as much.

So, is this really that bad a setup?

Sean

weps · 06-17-2003, 10:54 AM

I was hoping for a few more comments, bringing this back up for the last time before I start making things permanent

Thanks for looking. Links are 1.5" sch 80 (.218 wall)
WEPS

TNToy · 06-17-2003, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by weps
Links are 1.5" ....218 wall
WEPS

In that case, go ahead and run it, but I will be very surprised if you don't bend a link the moment you really start hammering it, or land on a rock with one.

I don't think .218 would be a thick enough wall for a lower link unless it was at least 2.25" OD. You're probably fine on the uppers.

JohnnyJ · 06-17-2003, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TNToy
I don't think .218 would be a thick enough wall for a lower link unless it was at least 2.25" OD. You're probably fine on the uppers.

Are you saying that it will bend because it's pipe of that thickness/diameter, or just the thickness/diameter in general for lowers?

bgreen · 06-17-2003, 08:31 PM

This is what happend to my 1.5" sch 80 links the first time I landed hard on a rock....

This is what I did to prevent it from happening again. 3/16" by 1.5" angle.

My rear links are made from the same stuff, and with almost two years of runs, I never managed to bend one. Butt, if I ever get a chance to take the lowers off, they will be getting the same treatment as the fronts.

PIG · 06-17-2003, 08:49 PM

Pipe is for poop.

YeeP · 06-17-2003, 09:00 PM

Hmmm I usually use a pipe to smoke with PIG, we should probably talk.......

Not sure what kind of Anti-dive you are looking for or AS for that matter, but your vertical sepreation difference between the axle and the frame (if they are mocked up where you are going to leave them) leads me to believe that you are shooting for somewhere over 100%, and it looks like your somewhere in the range of 100 to 125 (guessing) . Personally I might add a little height to that upper controll arm mount at the frame. 9 inches of vert sep at the axle sounds great though. nice job!

Ryan

Rock Toy · 06-17-2003, 09:02 PM

1.5" 1/4" wall DOM just went on our CJ. I'll post up tomorrow with pics. Should be more than strong enough.

weps · 06-17-2003, 09:42 PM

I kinda like the angle iron addition to the links (or have thought of that too) also "MAY" allow for some more "Slidage" (new word) on an obstacle

Thanks for the Approval, and if PIG only hates the Pipe portion of it, I must be on the right track..... I may just go ahead and use some 1.5-2" DOM for the lowers now. I WILL raise the link up at the frame end so that it IS Parallel.
I think that the oil pan to diff clearance looks good, 4" TJ springs for now.......

Thanks for the help PBB!

WEPS

bgreen · 06-17-2003, 10:53 PM

If you made your links from 2" solid 4140, you could still bend them. Pipe works great for those of us that aren't made of money like PIG seems to be.

Make your links out of the 1.5" sch80, then slap a lenght of angle on it, and wheel it. If it bends, go with something heavier/stronger.

TNToy · 06-17-2003, 11:12 PM

I seriously think my links will be .250 wall *square* tubing with a bushing at the frame end, and a RE joint at the other. Just to piss people off.

Plus, Square is just plain harder to bend than same dia/wall round. It's just not as sexy.

Rock Toy · 06-18-2003, 09:15 AM

Here's what we have going on....all 1/4" wall DOM. Bushings came from POLY:

Rock Toy · 06-18-2003, 09:18 AM

Another:

ebuck · 06-18-2003, 03:40 PM

That is one hell of a D-Line!

LOL....

TNToy · 06-18-2003, 03:44 PM

Do you have a side shot?

06-11-2003, 08:48 PM	#1
weps Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Member # 10290 Location: Northeast Indiana Posts: 1,062	4 Link critique I have read ALOT about front 4 links, and have come to this point in my mock up (see pics) Keep in mind that at some point in time perfect placement must be compromised due to pesky items like the engine block, starter, and where to hang a Driveshaft.. Heres a run down... 2x3x .187 frame, 350 TBI,TH350, 203-205 and 404 Mogs on Hummer Rims with 42" swampers.TJ tub and 107" WB. I will be installing Johnny joints on the frame ends of the links (vs the wire ties) I asked for the critique, lets have it..LINK PICS WEPS __________________ build pics at www.wepsoffroad.com

06-11-2003, 08:50 PM	#2
weps Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Member # 10290 Location: Northeast Indiana Posts: 1,062	And another looking down...TOP of Links WEPS __________________ build pics at www.wepsoffroad.com

06-11-2003, 09:17 PM	#4
weps Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Member # 10290 Location: Northeast Indiana Posts: 1,062	Thanks, I can move the top link up a bit more to get it more parallel. I was trying to consider the torque rotation difference of the Portal vs. "regular" axle, and was trying to get some more preload that way... Yes, that is pretty much the set ride height. Top link is 34" lower is 32" vert. separation is "around" 9" WEPS __________________ build pics at www.wepsoffroad.com Last edited by weps; 06-11-2003 at 09:18 PM.

06-11-2003, 09:29 PM	#5
larryboy Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Member # 9222 Location: uber alles,ca Posts: 2,805	side view for all to see. Attached Images

06-11-2003, 10:15 PM	#6
Gen. Nonsense Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Member # 18671 Location: BCC, AZ Posts: 935	Looks like a good start. I want to coil my Scout sooooobad but I have a major lack of funds Oh well when the time is right. Keep on updating. __________________ no sig

06-11-2003, 08:57 PM	#3
twinpinion Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Member # 18628 Location: Your mom's house Posts: 54	All the anti-squat, weight transfer tech doesn't work for the front axle the same as the rear. From what I have played with that would be a killer rear set up if that's the actual height it will sit at. It should work fine in your front end too but it may dive when you get on the brakes hard. Making the front links more parralel has helped keep mine from diving. If you don't plan on going fast don't worry about it. Weld it up.

06-11-2003, 10:21 PM	#7
Air Ride Tech Editor Join Date: Sep 2000 Member # 1656 Location: Santa Margarita, north of bender land Posts: 2,914	more separation at the frame will also help keep your steering geometry more correct though the full range of travel. looks good __________________ tinbenders.org For info on the Forumla Toyota and the full tube X chassis. Click here to visit Hendrix Motorsports camo is my hero, even if he is gay DirtChoppers.net

06-12-2003, 11:01 AM	#9
weps Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Member # 10290 Location: Northeast Indiana Posts: 1,062	I did some adjusting this a.m., and can easily get the top link horizontal. This may shorten it up to about 32" and be the same (or darn close)to the lowers length. 260 views and no ones kicking me in the bag? Could it be all of the reading (Including the "god of suspension" thread) is paying off? Come on PIG, and TPIjeep....I'm hoping the day crew will check this out. For me, its bedtime! WEPS __________________ build pics at www.wepsoffroad.com

06-12-2003, 01:19 PM	#10
WikdWaze Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Member # 19754 Location: Augusta, GA Posts: 55	What size tubing did you use? looks beefy. __________________ '57 Ranchero + stroked 460 + 8-71 blower + 24R21's = too bad for the little guys

06-12-2003, 01:44 PM	#11
Sean Registered User Join Date: Dec 2000 Member # 2538 Location: Mesa, AZ, USA Posts: 1,949	This isn't a critique. From what I can tell (admittedly I don't know much about 4 links) it looks kick ass. I have more of a question/observation. I notice your upper link when veiwed from the side angles down from the axle toward the frame. It sounds like a few of the respondents feel that will cause excessive pinion rotation throught the travel of the suspension. What I've noticed is that John Gilleland's buggy (and the Karnivore copys by Avalanche) do their links the same way, although they look as if the upper link is still angled downward but just not quite as much. So, is this really that bad a setup? Sean

06-17-2003, 10:54 AM	#12
weps Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Member # 10290 Location: Northeast Indiana Posts: 1,062	I was hoping for a few more comments, bringing this back up for the last time before I start making things permanent Thanks for looking. Links are 1.5" sch 80 (.218 wall) WEPS __________________ build pics at www.wepsoffroad.com

06-17-2003, 08:31 PM	#15
bgreen Donkey Hunter Join Date: Feb 2002 Member # 9801 Location: Kenai Alaska Posts: 2,247	This is what happend to my 1.5" sch 80 links the first time I landed hard on a rock.... This is what I did to prevent it from happening again. 3/16" by 1.5" angle. My rear links are made from the same stuff, and with almost two years of runs, I never managed to bend one. Butt, if I ever get a chance to take the lowers off, they will be getting the same treatment as the fronts. __________________ Planning a trip to Alaska? Want to see how Alaskans Wheel? www.alaska4x4network.com

06-17-2003, 08:49 PM	#16
PIG 2InDaPink&1InDaStink Join Date: May 2001 Member # 4502 Location: SanLuisObispo, CA Posts: 4,689	Pipe is for poop. __________________ www.POLYPERFORMANCE.com Click the sig for everything you need to build a tube car... 805-783-2060 NEW PRODUCTS ADDED DAILY !!! **CLICK HERE FOR OUR OPEN BOX/SALE ITEMS**

06-17-2003, 09:00 PM	#17
YeeP Granite Guru Join Date: May 2001 Member # 4568 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 830	Hmmm I usually use a pipe to smoke with PIG, we should probably talk....... Not sure what kind of Anti-dive you are looking for or AS for that matter, but your vertical sepreation difference between the axle and the frame (if they are mocked up where you are going to leave them) leads me to believe that you are shooting for somewhere over 100%, and it looks like your somewhere in the range of 100 to 125 (guessing) . Personally I might add a little height to that upper controll arm mount at the frame. 9 inches of vert sep at the axle sounds great though. nice job! Ryan Last edited by YeeP; 06-17-2003 at 09:07 PM.

06-17-2003, 09:02 PM	#18
Rock Toy Rock God Join Date: Feb 2000 Member # 28 Location: San Francisco Posts: 2,017	1.5" 1/4" wall DOM just went on our CJ. I'll post up tomorrow with pics. Should be more than strong enough. __________________ In between trucks right now.....

06-17-2003, 09:42 PM	#19
weps Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Member # 10290 Location: Northeast Indiana Posts: 1,062	I kinda like the angle iron addition to the links (or have thought of that too) also "MAY" allow for some more "Slidage" (new word) on an obstacle Thanks for the Approval, and if PIG only hates the Pipe portion of it, I must be on the right track..... I may just go ahead and use some 1.5-2" DOM for the lowers now. I WILL raise the link up at the frame end so that it IS Parallel. I think that the oil pan to diff clearance looks good, 4" TJ springs for now....... Thanks for the help PBB! WEPS __________________ build pics at www.wepsoffroad.com

06-17-2003, 10:53 PM	#20
bgreen Donkey Hunter Join Date: Feb 2002 Member # 9801 Location: Kenai Alaska Posts: 2,247	If you made your links from 2" solid 4140, you could still bend them. Pipe works great for those of us that aren't made of money like PIG seems to be. Make your links out of the 1.5" sch80, then slap a lenght of angle on it, and wheel it. If it bends, go with something heavier/stronger. __________________ Planning a trip to Alaska? Want to see how Alaskans Wheel? www.alaska4x4network.com

06-18-2003, 09:15 AM	#22
Rock Toy Rock God Join Date: Feb 2000 Member # 28 Location: San Francisco Posts: 2,017	Here's what we have going on....all 1/4" wall DOM. Bushings came from POLY: Attached Images __________________ In between trucks right now.....

06-18-2003, 09:18 AM	#23
Rock Toy Rock God Join Date: Feb 2000 Member # 28 Location: San Francisco Posts: 2,017	Another: Attached Images __________________ In between trucks right now.....

06-18-2003, 03:40 PM	#24
ebuck Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Member # 18222 Location: Coast Range, Oregon Posts: 138	Rock Toy That is one hell of a D-Line! LOL.... __________________ Lil slightly modified '88 zook. "Family man's ATV"

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