OK, so I haven't completely cured my death wobbles...

PTSchram · 07-22-2003, 12:20 PM

I have certainly reduced them!

So far, I have replaced all of the tie rod ends.
Set swivel preload (both sides, thank you very much)
New shocks
balanced and rotated tires (patched a rear tire with a nail in it).
Replaced cross tube (the one in front)
replaced front driveshaft twice (third one on the way from Darkstar as soon as I pay him)
replaced and relocated steering dampener (OME)
tried to set Toe out to 16'
springs are from the rear, Dweb CB style (I doubt weak front springs would cause great difficulty)

At this point, I only have bushings and the track rod (yes, it is bent badly) that have not been repaired or at least adjusted.

The truck is barely broken in and only has 176K on it. Suppose replacing those pesky radius arm and panhard rod bushings will do the trick?

At this point, I get just the hint of impending vibration through the steering wheel, the "Death Wobble" doesn't seem to happen, but I'm afraid of what the future will bring.

Any suggestions for the magic bullet I have overlooked in my zeal?

Peace,
Paul

LRover · 07-22-2003, 01:43 PM

Panhard bushings. Just did mine and I'm amazed at the difference. It even put the steering wheel back into the centered position. Bad news is it was just about the last thing I tried!

Mike

Greg Davis · 07-22-2003, 01:48 PM

Paul, if your panhard is bent, it may be flexing, causing the "wobble". Last year I made a new panhard that had a dropped bend in it. Plus, it was made from too small of tubing. When I would hit a bump, it would flex, causing, what I thought was bump steer. When I took it back off and replaced it with the stock unit, the "wobble" went away. If the DI and DII share the same panhard, I have one in my garage, since I recently made a solid 1.5" SS unit.

red90rover · 07-22-2003, 01:50 PM

1) What does "toe out to 16' " mean?? Do you mean 1/16" ?

2) What is your lift approximately? When you get to a certain point, the castor goes negative and it is all downhill from there.

3) Have you had the alignment checked. I would suggest getting it to a shop, get the complete 4 wheel alignment numbers and make sure everything is within spec in case something is bent.

4) Hub bearings adjusted correctly?

5) Pull the panhard rod and check bushings. When they go, it gets loose. Make sure they are bolted up tight as hell as loose bolt allow it to move.

PTSchram · 07-22-2003, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by red90rover
1) What does "toe out to 16' " mean?? Do you mean 1/16" ?

2) What is your lift approximately? When you get to a certain point, the castor goes negative and it is all downhill from there.

3) Have you had the alignment checked. I would suggest getting it to a shop, get the complete 4 wheel alignment numbers and make sure everything is within spec in case something is bent.

4) Hub bearings adjusted correctly?

5) Pull the panhard rod and check bushings. When they go, it gets loose. Make sure they are bolted up tight as hell as loose bolt allow it to move.

1) What does "toe out to 16' " mean?? Do you mean 1/16" ?

16 minutes of angle, per the factory manuals-turns out that the manual indicates zero to 16 minutes of toe out angle. 16 minutes is right around 0.078 inches, hence toe out of 1/16" is probably a pretty good approximation.

2) What is your lift approximately?

Not much, Rover Tym 2" springs in back, factory rear in front. Shouldn't have been enough to cause the wobble.

3) Have you had the alignment checked.

No, when I call, they all demand to set the caster and camber... Then they tell ME I don't know what I'm talking about! I'm tempted to tell them to correct the caster.

4) Hub bearings adjusted correctly?

I have not previously had reason to open my front hubs. There is no noticeable play in the hubs. Could be, but I'd expect it to manifest itself in other ways as well.

5) Pull the panhard rod and check bushings. When they go, it gets loose. Make sure they are bolted up tight as hell as loose bolt allow it to move.

I removed it to install my inferior diff guards and haven't touched it since. I will check it.

It sounds as though it really is the last thing I have looked at-bushings. So, do I buy poly, cut the old ones out without removing the radius arms (obviously, only dealing the axle end) and pop the new ones in, or do I go whole hog and pull the arms and try not to kill myself pressing the new bushings in? I hate it when the parts are cheap, yet the install involved...

Looks like I have my work cut out for me...

Peace,
Paul

red90rover · 07-22-2003, 02:29 PM

If it were me, I'd get the alignment checked just to make sure. Tell them to piss off and NOT adjust anything. Just get a print out of the data as is.

Do the panhard rod bushings right away. They are cheap and the easiest to change. They are also the only ones that would allow for what you describe. Like I said, torque them up hard, been there done that, felt the results.

Can you measure your front springs loaded length? That would let us know how far above stock you are. I know with my Disco, when I hit 3", it all went to s&*t. BTW, are we talking about your Disco?

PTSchram · 07-22-2003, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by red90rover

Can you measure your front springs loaded length? That would let us know how far above stock you are. I know with my Disco, when I hit 3", it all went to s&*t. BTW, are we talking about your Disco?

Yes, it is the Disco (the only one with plates and insurance and a title...). The front lift can't be more than 2", I measured it right after I did the lift and it was right around 2" of lift.

As for the alignment, there is no telling what I might have done to this truck off-road, especially considering the condition of the dampener and the track rod...

I'll order some panhard rod bushings tonight or tomorrow and wait for the slow boat from England to arrive.

The sad thing, I really wanted to replace the bushings last year!

Peace,
Paul

redrangie · 07-22-2003, 03:50 PM

Am I the only guy that changes his bushings on a yearly basis? I thought everyone ate bushings at this rate?

j

DChapman · 07-22-2003, 03:58 PM

Paul, I have changed over to HD tie rods, changed tie rod ends, balanced my tires, had an alignment, changed front drive shafts, rebuilt the entire front axle (bearings and all), removed the front drive shaft and drove around, removed the axles and carrier and drove around, and still have a shimmy starting at around 50MPH. I think the next step is to look into the steering box.

Also I am running the same setup you have. CB but with OME's. I have heard people say thet the rear trailering arms need to match you lift to prevent vibes. I don't know if this is right, but let me know what you find out and I will let you know what I find out too.

D

Michael Rangie · 07-22-2003, 04:00 PM

Get the print out from a reputable front end place.

Check castor.

Rover has 3 degrees castor stock.
every half inch lift take away one degree castor.

If all bushes have been replaced and the swivell pre load is correct then look castor.

Michael.

red90rover · 07-22-2003, 05:30 PM

From the UK? Just go to a dealer. We are talking $5 a bushing. Not quite worth the postage.

Serious One · 07-22-2003, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by red90rover
From the UK? Just go to a dealer. We are talking $5 a bushing. Not quite worth the postage.

Postage, hell I figure the time savings would be worth much more than any monetary difference.

Get the damn rubber bushings tomorrow and get them in.

You didn't learn your lesson from me did you?

M

PTSchram · 07-25-2003, 09:09 AM

Bushings ordered, should be here today. I only bought those I thought most important, panhard rod, radius arms (axle and frame). Surprisingly inexpensive!

I crawled under the truck and had the wife turn the wheel and made the following observations that may have a bearing.

1: Steering dampener arm flexes somewhat when the wheels begin to turn. I'll revisit the design work and beat on the engineer who made it. You'd think after all the variations, he'd have gotten it right!

2: No visible play whatsoever in the panhard rod, or the radius arms

I really would have liked this to be my smoking gun.

3: Bent Track rod... Flexing? It's bent badly enough that I'm surprised it isn't rubbing against the axle housing! Anybody got one for me (Thanx Mike)? Preferably Cheap (trying to live up to my Dweb reputation).

I'll be removing the radius arm bushings using the hole saw/sawzall method, wish me luck. If it doesn't work out, I'll use the hot blue speedtool

Peace,
Paul

redrangie · 07-25-2003, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PTSchram
Bushings ordered, should be here today. I only bought those I thought most important, panhard rod, radius arms (axle and frame). Surprisingly inexpensive!

I crawled under the truck and had the wife turn the wheel and made the following observations that may have a bearing.

1: Steering dampener arm flexes somewhat when the wheels begin to turn. I'll revisit the design work and beat on the engineer who made it. You'd think after all the variations, he'd have gotten it right!

2: No visible play whatsoever in the panhard rod, or the radius arms I really would have liked this to be my smoking gun.

3: Bent Track rod... Flexing? It's bent badly enough that I'm surprised it isn't rubbing against the axle housing! Anybody got one for me (Thanx Mike)? Preferably Cheap (trying to live up to my Dweb reputation).

I'll be removing the radius arm bushings using the hole saw/sawzall method, wish me luck. If it doesn't work out, I'll use the hot blue speedtool

Peace,
Paul

Dude, fix the track bar before you go looking for a complete fix.

I am doing the radius bushings this weekend as well. I have never heard of them causing a death wobble though, as they would generally cause the whole axle to move, not allow oscilation between the wheels.

j

PTSchram · 07-25-2003, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by redrangie

Dude, fix the track bar before you go looking for a complete fix.

j

D'Oh! I can pull the one off the Rangie... Oops, just got the title, the kid will want to be driving it. Maybe I'll pull one off the Series for the Rangie-anybody got some coathanger wire to make it fit?

Peace,
Paul

redrangie · 07-25-2003, 10:12 AM

If YOU can't R&R and test within an hour, you

suck.

Greg Davis · 07-25-2003, 10:46 AM

Paul, if the panhard from a DII will work, it's yours. Let me know.

PTSchram · 07-25-2003, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Greg Davis
Paul, if the panhard from a DII will work, it's yours. Let me know.

I appreciate the offer, but at this point, I'm leaning more toward the semi-taco-ed track rod being the culprit. If I need it, I'll let you know.

As for DII parts, I'd love a front driveshaft...

DChapman · 07-25-2003, 02:42 PM

Paul, Does your steering wheel shimmy back and forth about 1/2" each way? This is the problem I am having all the time. Then at about 50mph the whole truck starts to shake. When I hit about 70mph the shake kindda goes away, but the steering wheel still has the shimmy to it. I'm thinking Sterring Box? I have no play what so ever in the front wheels. The bearings are new, the tie rod ends are new and the swivel pre-load is set. The tires balanced out, but maybe it is the tires them selfs? 255/85/16 Interco MT's. Anyone have any input?

red90rover · 07-25-2003, 04:42 PM

How much lift? Check your castor.

BTW, what do you guys run for tire pressures. Discos need at least 10 psi more in the rear than the front.

dosed · 07-25-2003, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by red90rover
How much lift? Check your castor.

BTW, what do you guys run for tire pressures. Discos need at least 10 psi more in the rear than the front.

That must be due to the weight distribution?

Any idea what good settings are on a 95 RR LWB?

Gratz -- (thread theft... eeek)

darkstar · 07-25-2003, 05:48 PM

I used to run 50 rear 40 front when I had the 235/85s, now I run 35 both front and rear, and it drives pretty well. I'm afraid to put any more air in there (beadlocks) and definitely don't want any less in the front. IOW I'm not sure that it makes a huge difference as long as all the tires have enough.

DChapman · 07-25-2003, 06:02 PM

I have 2" OME and 2" body. I dont think the 2" throws the caster off too much. I run 40psi up front and 45 in the rear. The MT's seem to wear real good at that PSI.

redrangie · 07-25-2003, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by red90rover
How much lift? Check your castor.

BTW, what do you guys run for tire pressures. Discos need at least 10 psi more in the rear than the front.

WTF

Dude, That's ONLY if you're carrying a LOAD!!!! of 200kilos????

WITH 4 passengers....

Higher pressure will not make it go away, it just makes the tires stiffer.....

(you don't FEEL it as much)

j

Richard Dekkard · 07-25-2003, 06:20 PM

yah, any higher then 40 psi in the tires and your teeth will rattle out, and youll do endo's over frost heaves...

Quote:

Rover has 3 degrees castor stock.

so does that mean I am -5 degrees castor, or 11 degrees...

Paul... what kind of shocks you running....?

07-22-2003, 12:20 PM	#1
PTSchram Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Member # 12499 Location: In the office writing letters to Land Rover's attorney, trying to stay in business, Posts: 8,178	OK, so I haven't completely cured my death wobbles... I have certainly reduced them! So far, I have replaced all of the tie rod ends. Set swivel preload (both sides, thank you very much) New shocks balanced and rotated tires (patched a rear tire with a nail in it). Replaced cross tube (the one in front) replaced front driveshaft twice (third one on the way from Darkstar as soon as I pay him) replaced and relocated steering dampener (OME) tried to set Toe out to 16' springs are from the rear, Dweb CB style (I doubt weak front springs would cause great difficulty) At this point, I only have bushings and the track rod (yes, it is bent badly) that have not been repaired or at least adjusted. The truck is barely broken in and only has 176K on it. Suppose replacing those pesky radius arm and panhard rod bushings will do the trick? At this point, I get just the hint of impending vibration through the steering wheel, the "Death Wobble" doesn't seem to happen, but I'm afraid of what the future will bring. Any suggestions for the magic bullet I have overlooked in my zeal? Peace, Paul __________________ Wrenchin' to riches!

07-22-2003, 01:48 PM	#3
Greg Davis Granite Guru Join Date: Apr 2002 Member # 11066 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 895	Paul, if your panhard is bent, it may be flexing, causing the "wobble". Last year I made a new panhard that had a dropped bend in it. Plus, it was made from too small of tubing. When I would hit a bump, it would flex, causing, what I thought was bump steer. When I took it back off and replaced it with the stock unit, the "wobble" went away. If the DI and DII share the same panhard, I have one in my garage, since I recently made a solid 1.5" SS unit. __________________ "Wrinkles Only Go Where Smiles Have Been"

07-22-2003, 03:50 PM	#8
redrangie Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Member # 11072 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 2,042	Am I the only guy that changes his bushings on a yearly basis? I thought everyone ate bushings at this rate? j __________________ forgings design dot com metal furniture \| fabrication \| decor new \| rustic \| recycled

07-22-2003, 04:00 PM	#10
Michael Rangie Wheeler Join Date: Jul 2002 Member # 13008 Location: Geelong. Australia Posts: 200	Get the print out from a reputable front end place. Check castor. Rover has 3 degrees castor stock. every half inch lift take away one degree castor. If all bushes have been replaced and the swivell pre load is correct then look castor. Michael. __________________ 1986 RR. 5.7 HSV engine 230KW. (Not Chev) ZF auto and 1.003-1 Lt230 Toy 4.3 diff centres. No substitute for cubic inches.

07-25-2003, 09:09 AM	#13
PTSchram Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Member # 12499 Location: In the office writing letters to Land Rover's attorney, trying to stay in business, Posts: 8,178	Bushings ordered, should be here today. I only bought those I thought most important, panhard rod, radius arms (axle and frame). Surprisingly inexpensive! I crawled under the truck and had the wife turn the wheel and made the following observations that may have a bearing. 1: Steering dampener arm flexes somewhat when the wheels begin to turn. I'll revisit the design work and beat on the engineer who made it. You'd think after all the variations, he'd have gotten it right! 2: No visible play whatsoever in the panhard rod, or the radius arms I really would have liked this to be my smoking gun. 3: Bent Track rod... Flexing? It's bent badly enough that I'm surprised it isn't rubbing against the axle housing! Anybody got one for me (Thanx Mike)? Preferably Cheap (trying to live up to my Dweb reputation). I'll be removing the radius arm bushings using the hole saw/sawzall method, wish me luck. If it doesn't work out, I'll use the hot blue speedtool Peace, Paul __________________ Wrenchin' to riches!

07-22-2003, 01:43 PM	#2
LRover Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Member # 13149 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 139	Panhard bushings. Just did mine and I'm amazed at the difference. It even put the steering wheel back into the centered position. Bad news is it was just about the last thing I tried! Mike

07-22-2003, 01:50 PM	#4
red90rover Granite Guru Join Date: Jun 2003 Member # 20109 Location: Calgary Posts: 720	1) What does "toe out to 16' " mean?? Do you mean 1/16" ? 2) What is your lift approximately? When you get to a certain point, the castor goes negative and it is all downhill from there. 3) Have you had the alignment checked. I would suggest getting it to a shop, get the complete 4 wheel alignment numbers and make sure everything is within spec in case something is bent. 4) Hub bearings adjusted correctly? 5) Pull the panhard rod and check bushings. When they go, it gets loose. Make sure they are bolted up tight as hell as loose bolt allow it to move.

07-22-2003, 02:29 PM	#6
red90rover Granite Guru Join Date: Jun 2003 Member # 20109 Location: Calgary Posts: 720	If it were me, I'd get the alignment checked just to make sure. Tell them to piss off and NOT adjust anything. Just get a print out of the data as is. Do the panhard rod bushings right away. They are cheap and the easiest to change. They are also the only ones that would allow for what you describe. Like I said, torque them up hard, been there done that, felt the results. Can you measure your front springs loaded length? That would let us know how far above stock you are. I know with my Disco, when I hit 3", it all went to s&*t. BTW, are we talking about your Disco?

07-22-2003, 03:58 PM	#9
DChapman Banned Join Date: Jul 2003 Member # 21405 Location: va Posts: 384	Paul, I have changed over to HD tie rods, changed tie rod ends, balanced my tires, had an alignment, changed front drive shafts, rebuilt the entire front axle (bearings and all), removed the front drive shaft and drove around, removed the axles and carrier and drove around, and still have a shimmy starting at around 50MPH. I think the next step is to look into the steering box. Also I am running the same setup you have. CB but with OME's. I have heard people say thet the rear trailering arms need to match you lift to prevent vibes. I don't know if this is right, but let me know what you find out and I will let you know what I find out too. D

07-22-2003, 05:30 PM	#11
red90rover Granite Guru Join Date: Jun 2003 Member # 20109 Location: Calgary Posts: 720	From the UK? Just go to a dealer. We are talking $5 a bushing. Not quite worth the postage.

07-25-2003, 10:12 AM	#16
redrangie Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Member # 11072 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 2,042	If YOU can't R&R and test within an hour, you suck. __________________ forgings design dot com metal furniture \| fabrication \| decor new \| rustic \| recycled

07-25-2003, 10:46 AM	#17
Greg Davis Granite Guru Join Date: Apr 2002 Member # 11066 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 895	Paul, if the panhard from a DII will work, it's yours. Let me know. __________________ "Wrinkles Only Go Where Smiles Have Been"

07-25-2003, 02:42 PM	#19
DChapman Banned Join Date: Jul 2003 Member # 21405 Location: va Posts: 384	Paul, Does your steering wheel shimmy back and forth about 1/2" each way? This is the problem I am having all the time. Then at about 50mph the whole truck starts to shake. When I hit about 70mph the shake kindda goes away, but the steering wheel still has the shimmy to it. I'm thinking Sterring Box? I have no play what so ever in the front wheels. The bearings are new, the tie rod ends are new and the swivel pre-load is set. The tires balanced out, but maybe it is the tires them selfs? 255/85/16 Interco MT's. Anyone have any input?

07-25-2003, 04:42 PM	#20
red90rover Granite Guru Join Date: Jun 2003 Member # 20109 Location: Calgary Posts: 720	How much lift? Check your castor. BTW, what do you guys run for tire pressures. Discos need at least 10 psi more in the rear than the front.

07-25-2003, 05:48 PM	#22
darkstar Rock God Join Date: Aug 2002 Member # 13047 Location: Libertyville, IL Posts: 2,451	I used to run 50 rear 40 front when I had the 235/85s, now I run 35 both front and rear, and it drives pretty well. I'm afraid to put any more air in there (beadlocks) and definitely don't want any less in the front. IOW I'm not sure that it makes a huge difference as long as all the tires have enough. __________________ Alex 1998 LR Discovery Truggy Latest build thread Surplus industrial supplies for sale. Lots of good stuff for your rig, cheap: fasteners, automotive electrical supplies, etc: CLICK HERE.

07-25-2003, 06:02 PM	#23
DChapman Banned Join Date: Jul 2003 Member # 21405 Location: va Posts: 384	I have 2" OME and 2" body. I dont think the 2" throws the caster off too much. I run 40psi up front and 45 in the rear. The MT's seem to wear real good at that PSI.

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