Flipped 9" pinion oiling pics

JR · 09-22-2005, 12:22 AM

I thought I'd start a new thread so that it could be easy to search.

If you run plan on building hybrid Ford 9"/'mog axles, then you are going to need to address pinion bearing oiling issues because the pinion no longer will be bathing in oil.
I recently changed gear ratios in my 'mog 9s. I was able to inspect the pinion bearings for any signs of excessive ware or heat. Except for some marks left from when water got into the differentials (tank trap), there wasn't any.
I'm sure people have done it other ways. This is not a debate, it's just how I did it in '01.
Note: I am not a pro welder, not even a good welder. I used a mig because that's what I have and, anyway...I didn't think anybody would ever see it. It really should be done with a tig.

The first pic is from the front end. It runs off the coast side of the ring gear. The ring gear is rotating downward where it meets the pinion. You will want to catch the oil as ring and pinion mesh and funnel it down to the pinion bearings through a drilled hole. I don't remember the size of the hole, but it's as big as you can get away with. The hand made sheet metal scoops are welded to the pinion support where the R/P converge. The leading edge can be .020~.050 away from the pinion.

JR · 09-22-2005, 12:26 AM

Different view. The scoop needs to fit inside the differential housing.

JR · 09-22-2005, 12:32 AM

In this pic, you can see where the old pinion oiling galley was welded up ( between the two races) This needs to be done to keep the oil from exiting before it has done it's work oiling the bearings.

JR · 09-22-2005, 12:37 AM

Here you can see where the new hole is drilled from the scoop to the pinion bearings. It ends up between the two pinion bearing races.

JR · 09-22-2005, 12:39 AM

Drain holes will also need to be added. You can see the two of them towards the bottom ( in the pink)

JR · 09-22-2005, 12:41 AM

This pic shows the old drain hole (right) and the new ones (left)

JR · 09-22-2005, 12:51 AM

Now, here is how I did the rear end. It is the same except for how the oil is caught. The ring gear runs off the drive side and is rotating upward where it meets the pinion so a "tang" is welded in catch the oil and funnel it into the trough. A drilled hole (not shone) leads to the center between the pinion bearings.

JR · 09-22-2005, 12:55 AM

Here's another view of the scoop. The tunnel (drilled hole) from the scoop can be seen just below the bearing race . (you can also see the marks left on the race from water in the oil)

JR · 09-22-2005, 12:59 AM

Top view. Notice the drain holes ( at the bottom)

JR · 09-22-2005, 01:05 AM

Another pic of the relation between the scoop and pinion. This is right where the ring gear meshes and makes a wake of oil.

That's it.

BrettM · 09-22-2005, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bulfrog3

Sweet write up and pics. Do you think this could be done in normal 9" axles and be reliable driving the rig to trails? I would think someone could come up with the parts like you did and have a hi9 at 1/10th of the cost of a truehi9 unit.

1/10th the cost?!

he's running these upside down to deal with the rotation reversing portals, try building 9" portals for less than a Hi9. and the Hi9 isn't a crazy amount more than a Strange 3rd, gears, locker, and gear setup.

mike · 09-22-2005, 03:33 AM

Nice solution. 4 years of use without damage proves that

CartsXJ · 09-22-2005, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Another pic of the relation between the scoop and pinion. This is right where the ring gear meshes and makes a wake of oil.

That's it.

You either have child like hands or that pinion is huge

!!! What ratio is that 2.00:1?

TNToy · 09-22-2005, 08:26 AM

Ever looked at a 9" R&P uninstalled? They ARE huge.

Heck, even an 8.8" R&P dwarfs a 44. The pinions in these axles are big.

Gozuki · 09-22-2005, 09:27 AM

The reduction happens out at the portal box, and is multipled, so it probably is reeaally high ratio...

truehi9 · 09-22-2005, 09:45 AM

EXCELLENT write up and pics. Sometimes simple cheap solutions work the best. No oil pumps or moving parts to wear out. Ingenuity at its finest. And it works at ALL speeds. So simple it has no choice but to work. Here is another example of such a system. http://www.truehi9.com/oilingsystem2.html

Aggro · 09-22-2005, 10:48 AM

Looks a little butch for your rig, but it will be functional.
Did you ever have oiling issues with just a modified (drilled) pinion support?

TheNerple · 09-22-2005, 11:03 AM

I dont' know about childlike, as far as the hands go, but damn they sure are hairy!

The ratio was 2.something but the new ones are 3.0 or close to it. I wonder how that setup would work with 6-7:1 R&P ratio? I'm putting electric oilers on mine so I can just be done with it. I assume that scraper works as well as it does as the pinion and ring gear rotate close to the same. On Herman's 7.33's that pinion is moving a whole lot faster than the ring gear so I still worry about whether the ring gear would sling enough oil for the pinion to catch and oil the bearing. Anyway good tech for your mog freaks John.

We tried the aftermarket custom upside down pinion support from currie and it didn't last 1 mile of slow going. I suppose you could waaaay over fill the diffs and have it work fine for competition style rockcrawling but I have my doubts for prerunning through the desert.

truehi9 · 09-22-2005, 12:33 PM

Quote: "On Herman's 7.33's that pinion is moving a whole lot faster than the ring gear so I still worry about whether the ring gear would sling enough oil for the pinion to catch and oil the bearing."

If the ring gear scraper is positioned right it will pull oil off the ring gear at any rpm. It's not depending on oil being slung off.

Quote: "We tried the aftermarket custom upside down pinion support from currie and it didn't last 1 mile of slow going. I suppose you could waaaay over fill the diffs and have it work fine for competition style rockcrawling but I have my doubts for prerunning through the desert."

1. Do you have a part number on that pinion support from Currie? I can't seem to find it in Currie's catalog or website.

2. We have a customer with an 800 h.p. (customer supplied info) prerunner style desert racer that has been running this oiling system on his for 1 year and has had no issues.

JR · 09-22-2005, 01:00 PM

I went from 2.50 to a 3.00 gear set. They're both about the same size, ring gear is a little bigger on the 3.00.
I didn't know about the custom pinion support, not even sure it was available 4 years ago.
I think the way I did it would work on any gear ratio. But, since it works with gravity, steep pinion angles are not going to work.
The other part of the solution is to use Red Line Synthetic Heavy Shockproof
gear oil 75W250. It's used in the diffs and portal boxes.

I have some pics that were originally taken on film (remember that stuff?). Can't figure out how to use the scanner, so Marilyn will need to help.
The pics show bench testing at slow speeds.
I think at high speeds it just a blizzard inside the diff housing and probably doesn’t matter much.

XJGPN2 · 09-22-2005, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truehi9

EXCELLENT write up and pics. Sometimes simple cheap solutions work the best. No oil pumps or moving parts to wear out. Ingenuity at its finest. And it works at ALL speeds. So simple it has no choice but to work. Here is another example of such a system. http://www.truehi9.com/oilingsystem2.html

Is there any reason that your custom pinion support and extended shroud system couldn't be used in a standard Ford 9" Third Member to permit it to be used upside down for rear engined buggies, or portals where they have to run backwards? I know you are pretty much saying that you did the same thing as what JR has done... but I don't know enough about your True Hi9 to know if all of the parts would physically fit using a standard 9" Flipped upside down.

truehi9 · 09-22-2005, 02:08 PM

It is pretty much the same system but we have to custom fit each scraper to each gear ratio. The pinion support we use is actually from Currie part #94031 and we just add the scraper. Ours may not work with the 3.00 range gear ratios since the pinion gets so large. I hope this somewhat answers your question.

KYcrawler · 09-22-2005, 03:36 PM

why are the drain holes between the races needed wouldnt the oil just dissipate between spaces in the inner bearing and in turn keep the bearings cooler beacuse they are then running in oil

truehi9 · 09-22-2005, 04:30 PM

In our setup and I believe also JR's (posts #5 & #6) the drain holes are out the front not between the races.

pmurf1 · 09-22-2005, 07:03 PM

Alright, I'll be the first one to look stupid and ask. Why could you overfill them enough completely saturate the pinion bearings in oil? Only reason I can think of is you would have to put a fill plug on top somewhere and allow for extra expansion? Or is that bearing tilted so far back by the time you rotate your pinion up that it makes this pointless?

09-22-2005, 12:22 AM	#1
JR Zeus of the Sluice Join Date: Dec 2001 Member # 8524 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 4,306	Flipped 9" pinion oiling pics I thought I'd start a new thread so that it could be easy to search. If you run plan on building hybrid Ford 9"/'mog axles, then you are going to need to address pinion bearing oiling issues because the pinion no longer will be bathing in oil. I recently changed gear ratios in my 'mog 9s. I was able to inspect the pinion bearings for any signs of excessive ware or heat. Except for some marks left from when water got into the differentials (tank trap), there wasn't any. I'm sure people have done it other ways. This is not a debate, it's just how I did it in '01. Note: I am not a pro welder, not even a good welder. I used a mig because that's what I have and, anyway...I didn't think anybody would ever see it. It really should be done with a tig. The first pic is from the front end. It runs off the coast side of the ring gear. The ring gear is rotating downward where it meets the pinion. You will want to catch the oil as ring and pinion mesh and funnel it down to the pinion bearings through a drilled hole. I don't remember the size of the hole, but it's as big as you can get away with. The hand made sheet metal scoops are welded to the pinion support where the R/P converge. The leading edge can be .020~.050 away from the pinion. Attached Images Last edited by JR; 09-22-2005 at 09:45 AM.

09-22-2005, 12:26 AM	#2
JR Zeus of the Sluice Join Date: Dec 2001 Member # 8524 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 4,306	Different view. The scoop needs to fit inside the differential housing. Attached Images

09-22-2005, 12:32 AM	#3
JR Zeus of the Sluice Join Date: Dec 2001 Member # 8524 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 4,306	In this pic, you can see where the old pinion oiling galley was welded up ( between the two races) This needs to be done to keep the oil from exiting before it has done it's work oiling the bearings. Attached Images Last edited by JR; 09-22-2005 at 01:12 AM.

09-22-2005, 12:37 AM	#4
JR Zeus of the Sluice Join Date: Dec 2001 Member # 8524 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 4,306	Here you can see where the new hole is drilled from the scoop to the pinion bearings. It ends up between the two pinion bearing races. Attached Images Last edited by JR; 09-22-2005 at 01:59 AM.

09-22-2005, 12:51 AM	#7
JR Zeus of the Sluice Join Date: Dec 2001 Member # 8524 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 4,306	Now, here is how I did the rear end. It is the same except for how the oil is caught. The ring gear runs off the drive side and is rotating upward where it meets the pinion so a "tang" is welded in catch the oil and funnel it into the trough. A drilled hole (not shone) leads to the center between the pinion bearings. Attached Images Last edited by JR; 09-22-2005 at 09:56 AM.

09-22-2005, 12:39 AM	#5
JR Zeus of the Sluice Join Date: Dec 2001 Member # 8524 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 4,306	Drain holes will also need to be added. You can see the two of them towards the bottom ( in the pink) Attached Images Last edited by JR; 09-22-2005 at 01:59 AM.

09-22-2005, 12:41 AM	#6
JR Zeus of the Sluice Join Date: Dec 2001 Member # 8524 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 4,306	This pic shows the old drain hole (right) and the new ones (left) Attached Images

09-22-2005, 12:55 AM	#8
JR Zeus of the Sluice Join Date: Dec 2001 Member # 8524 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 4,306	Here's another view of the scoop. The tunnel (drilled hole) from the scoop can be seen just below the bearing race . (you can also see the marks left on the race from water in the oil) Attached Images Last edited by JR; 09-22-2005 at 10:02 AM.

09-22-2005, 12:59 AM	#9
JR Zeus of the Sluice Join Date: Dec 2001 Member # 8524 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 4,306	Top view. Notice the drain holes ( at the bottom) Attached Images Last edited by JR; 09-22-2005 at 01:19 AM.

09-22-2005, 01:05 AM	#10
JR Zeus of the Sluice Join Date: Dec 2001 Member # 8524 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 4,306	Another pic of the relation between the scoop and pinion. This is right where the ring gear meshes and makes a wake of oil. That's it. Attached Images

09-22-2005, 03:33 AM	#12
mike Registered User Join Date: Feb 2000 Member # 144 Location: Northern Mexico... er.. AriDzona Posts: 6,851	Nice solution. 4 years of use without damage proves that

09-22-2005, 08:26 AM	#14
TNToy Cardboard Killer Join Date: Jul 2001 Member # 5776 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 11,263	Ever looked at a 9" R&P uninstalled? They ARE huge. Heck, even an 8.8" R&P dwarfs a 44. The pinions in these axles are big.

09-22-2005, 09:27 AM	#15
Gozuki Zeus of the Sluice Join Date: Jan 2001 Member # 3088 Location: West Coast, USA Posts: 4,286	The reduction happens out at the portal box, and is multipled, so it probably is reeaally high ratio... __________________ Buy my new Victor regulators!

09-22-2005, 09:45 AM	#16
truehi9 Granite Guru Join Date: Oct 2004 Member # 37651 Location: Dilworth, MN Posts: 688	EXCELLENT write up and pics. Sometimes simple cheap solutions work the best. No oil pumps or moving parts to wear out. Ingenuity at its finest. And it works at ALL speeds. So simple it has no choice but to work. Here is another example of such a system. http://www.truehi9.com/oilingsystem2.html __________________ www.truehi9.com DIFFERENTIAL BUILDER

09-22-2005, 10:48 AM	#17
Aggro Zeus of the Sluice Join Date: Dec 2000 Member # 2587 Location: 3845.859N 12034.534W (N. Ca) Future location of beachfront property. Posts: 3,532	Looks a little butch for your rig, but it will be functional. Did you ever have oiling issues with just a modified (drilled) pinion support? __________________ Highly UnStAbLe with nothing to lose.

09-22-2005, 11:03 AM	#18
TheNerple Registered User Join Date: Jan 2001 Member # 2816 Location: Loma Linda, CA Posts: 1,573	I dont' know about childlike, as far as the hands go, but damn they sure are hairy! The ratio was 2.something but the new ones are 3.0 or close to it. I wonder how that setup would work with 6-7:1 R&P ratio? I'm putting electric oilers on mine so I can just be done with it. I assume that scraper works as well as it does as the pinion and ring gear rotate close to the same. On Herman's 7.33's that pinion is moving a whole lot faster than the ring gear so I still worry about whether the ring gear would sling enough oil for the pinion to catch and oil the bearing. Anyway good tech for your mog freaks John. We tried the aftermarket custom upside down pinion support from currie and it didn't last 1 mile of slow going. I suppose you could waaaay over fill the diffs and have it work fine for competition style rockcrawling but I have my doubts for prerunning through the desert. __________________ Big Girls Don't Climb...

09-22-2005, 12:33 PM	#19
truehi9 Granite Guru Join Date: Oct 2004 Member # 37651 Location: Dilworth, MN Posts: 688	Quote: "On Herman's 7.33's that pinion is moving a whole lot faster than the ring gear so I still worry about whether the ring gear would sling enough oil for the pinion to catch and oil the bearing." If the ring gear scraper is positioned right it will pull oil off the ring gear at any rpm. It's not depending on oil being slung off. Quote: "We tried the aftermarket custom upside down pinion support from currie and it didn't last 1 mile of slow going. I suppose you could waaaay over fill the diffs and have it work fine for competition style rockcrawling but I have my doubts for prerunning through the desert." 1. Do you have a part number on that pinion support from Currie? I can't seem to find it in Currie's catalog or website. 2. We have a customer with an 800 h.p. (customer supplied info) prerunner style desert racer that has been running this oiling system on his for 1 year and has had no issues. __________________ www.truehi9.com DIFFERENTIAL BUILDER

09-22-2005, 01:00 PM	#20
JR Zeus of the Sluice Join Date: Dec 2001 Member # 8524 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 4,306	I went from 2.50 to a 3.00 gear set. They're both about the same size, ring gear is a little bigger on the 3.00. I didn't know about the custom pinion support, not even sure it was available 4 years ago. I think the way I did it would work on any gear ratio. But, since it works with gravity, steep pinion angles are not going to work. The other part of the solution is to use Red Line Synthetic Heavy Shockproof gear oil 75W250. It's used in the diffs and portal boxes. I have some pics that were originally taken on film (remember that stuff?). Can't figure out how to use the scanner, so Marilyn will need to help. The pics show bench testing at slow speeds. I think at high speeds it just a blizzard inside the diff housing and probably doesn’t matter much.

09-22-2005, 02:08 PM	#22
truehi9 Granite Guru Join Date: Oct 2004 Member # 37651 Location: Dilworth, MN Posts: 688	It is pretty much the same system but we have to custom fit each scraper to each gear ratio. The pinion support we use is actually from Currie part #94031 and we just add the scraper. Ours may not work with the 3.00 range gear ratios since the pinion gets so large. I hope this somewhat answers your question. __________________ www.truehi9.com DIFFERENTIAL BUILDER

09-22-2005, 03:36 PM	#23
KYcrawler Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Member # 9829 Location: Crawfordsville IN Posts: 1,478	why are the drain holes between the races needed wouldnt the oil just dissipate between spaces in the inner bearing and in turn keep the bearings cooler beacuse they are then running in oil __________________ 85 cj 7 for sale 304 t 18 dana 20 dana 30 front arb locker and 456 gears amc 20 rear 456's and arb locker 6 inch lift and new 33's on eagle 589's and 36 tsl's $4200

09-22-2005, 04:30 PM	#24
truehi9 Granite Guru Join Date: Oct 2004 Member # 37651 Location: Dilworth, MN Posts: 688	In our setup and I believe also JR's (posts #5 & #6) the drain holes are out the front not between the races. __________________ www.truehi9.com DIFFERENTIAL BUILDER

09-22-2005, 07:03 PM	#25
pmurf1 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2000 Member # 2463 Location: Phoenix,az Posts: 2,934	Alright, I'll be the first one to look stupid and ask. Why could you overfill them enough completely saturate the pinion bearings in oil? Only reason I can think of is you would have to put a fill plug on top somewhere and allow for extra expansion? Or is that bearing tilted so far back by the time you rotate your pinion up that it makes this pointless?

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