I thought this was an open forum.....

[Rubicrawler]

but I guess I'm wrong. There was a thread posted here discussing a rumor of some planned work to be held at the Gatekeeper. That thread disapeared. I thought it was important that this be discussed so I brought it up again. That thread became something that resembled a family fued but certainly never went beyond the lines drawn for this forum for proper behavior. Now, that thread has been killed as well. Now, the Mods have the right and responsibility to maintain the forum as they see fit but I take offense to having one of my threads deleted without explanation. Just like most people here, I've given my support, my time and my money in the fight to keep this trail open and maintained. I know I'm not owed anything, but I'd like an explanation.

[JoshC]

I already feel more and more like I'm not listened to. How many meetings have we attended, letters written, proposals discussed and it never seems like we are listened to. Hell I view Keith as a major player as is Doug and Doug doesn't even seem to have paid attention to the fact that he was at the meetings.

ARE YOU GUYS REALLY LISTENING? Or do you just have meetings so you can say that "it" was public information when your decisions to do "it" are made?

[Simple Man]

I can not speak to threads disapperaing but I need some clairification from JoshC.

From JoshC: "I already feel more and more like I'm not listened to. How many meetings have we attended, letters written, proposals discussed and it never seems like we are listened to. "

Welcome to the club. Just because you have voiced your opinion doesn't mean that the Forest Service will do what you want. We have pointed out that the FS is not following their own plan or direction from the court. You have to keep at it. Say it again and again and again. Say it in different forms: e-mail, phone calls, letter, in-person, etc.

With the latest stuff going on, John Berry is not listening to anyone. He did not follow the forest plan, he did not listen to the ROC, he did not listen to the users, he read the court order the way he wanted to, etc. The bottom line that it is his forest and he doesn't have to listen to anybody.



"Hell I view Keith as a major player as is Doug and Doug doesn't even seem to have paid attention to the fact that he was at the meetings."

I just don't understand this one.



"ARE YOU GUYS REALLY LISTENING? Or do you just have meetings so you can say that "it" was public information when your decisions to do "it" are made?"

Again, I don't get to make these decisions. "We" don't get to make these decisions. The county makes the decisions regarding the Rubicon Trail. "We" need to make our positions know to the county. I listen to a lot of people about issues regarding the Rubicon. When I sit at a meeting, I can only officially represent the North Tahoe Trail Dusters. Nobody on this board has authorized me to speak for them.

Get on the Rubicon e-mail list. Write letters. Show up the ROC meetings.





.

[JoshC]

Originally Posted by Simple Man

"Hell I view Keith as a major player as is Doug and Doug doesn't even seem to have paid attention to the fact that he was at the meetings."

I just don't understand this one.

Originally Posted by RCKRATZ

Doug, I take offense to your remarks about me not going to ROC meetings. I make every meeting that I can and stay as involved as possible.

Originally Posted by Simple Man

I said please show up and share your views. That shouldn't offend you. I'm sorry if i did, it was not my intent.

If you use your real name on this board I might realize who you are.

Cleared that one up from the other thread... He's Keith! You're Doug, and I'm Josh.

[UGET IT]

Interesting Mark................I would like to know as well.

[Disco]

I agree, it seems that if a thread doesn't go certain way, it doesn't go at all.

[JoshC]

Doug,

Perception is 9/10's of reality... or something like that. I guess I'm saying I feel that you guys are up there representing what is supposed to be "our" team but I don't feel very well represented. I know not everybody on this team has the same view so we aren't all going to be happy... But I feel dooped time after time. Perception...

Listen, I'm sorry I feel the way I do, but It's how I feel. I feel like we are seeing less and less of Del... The glue who has held us together. I feel like we are seeing our representatives (you guys) meeting "them" (whoever that is) half way too often regardless of how we have said we feel.

I want to see somebody stand up man. I know you guys are busting your butts, often neglecting your day jobs and your families and probably feel as frusterated as I do sometimes. Again, It's a perception thing, but that's big.

Why do "they" schedule the meetings at times we often can't attend? I FEEL like there is a plan... A plan to level the box, level the gate keeper, keep us out during winter, install camera based traffic counters, etc and nothing we say even though we are asked to say it, will make a difference.

I know I'm rambling. I could go on all day. I'm not personally attacking you guys. I'm frusterated with the situation not the persons. Sorry.

[cruzila]

Originally Posted by JoshC

I already feel more and more like I'm not listened to. How many meetings have we attended, letters written, proposals discussed and it never seems like we are listened to. Hell I view Keith as a major player as is Doug and Doug doesn't even seem to have paid attention to the fact that he was at the meetings.

ARE YOU GUYS REALLY LISTENING? Or do you just have meetings so you can say that "it" was public information when your decisions to do "it" are made?

Given a choice, I go to these meetings. I do it because I feel I can make a difference. These are public, county meetings, not mine. When the FS states they only received a few emails and no letters, it makes me believe that only a few of us are sending in letters.

[cruzila]

When you write a letter, or send an email, send a copy to Del or someone.....

A thread like this can get 50 views in an hour but generate no letters no comment. Meanwhile the FS is going on with the plan to eliminate 707 of the 721 non-system roads. And I sat in a meeting on Sunday listening to them say "trust us".

Now we go back and forth with each other. I pulled a thread because I made a decision that it was not in the best interest of the users to comment on at the time. It had too much detail information and could have jepordized further our stand with respect to the trail.

I have worked on gatekeeper since 2003. With great support from the FOTR and agencies involved. I'd like to see that continue.

[JoshC]

[quote=cruzila]I pulled a thread because I made a decision that it was not in the best interest of the users to comment on at the time. It had too much detail information and could have jepordized further our stand with respect to the trail.QUOTE]

My perception is that you are hiding something and that I'm being dooped. Like I said... perception is big.

[Rubicrawler]

Originally Posted by cruzila

I pulled a thread because I made a decision that it was not in the best interest of the users to comment on at the time. It had too much detail information and could have jepordized further our stand with respect to the trail.

Scott you're one of the hardest working guys I know when it comes to the trail and you have earned my full respect but, if there's a project happening on the trail, wouldn't this be the best place to let people know? Why attempt to keep it quiet? We've been kicking around ideas here on this forum about what it would take to restore the Gatekeeper and have offered up our manpower to make it happen. I'm guessing the original poster had some pretty good info and the county didn't want it getting out before they had competed the project.

[scotte]

So, I guess this secret work at Gatekeeper is already a done deal?

[MellowYellow]

I was checking back in on the thread that disappeared.
I couldn't believe a discussion like blasting the gate keeper could possibly have been made without more fuss. Now I see pictures of dust in the air. odd.

As for letters, maybe I'll start a new thread for that.
I do see a lot of the same names over and over on this forum. I could see how the FS might perceive that is it is just a noisy few making all emails and letters.

[Rubicrawler]

Originally Posted by scotte

So, I guess this secret work at Gatekeeper is already a done deal?

Looks that way. Here's a copy of the email the cruzila sent out on the FOTR mail list;

"A blasting project happened yesterday at the gatekeeper. The county
hired a blaster to do the work and some of the FOTR was there to witness
and help. I have a few terrible pictures and hope to get better ones
from others. Right now I cannot take the time (gotta work) but soon will
let you know more about wht happened. Start thinking about if you can
help phase two of this project which is moving rock around. We are still
waiting FS approval for local rock right now. Anyone going to the trail
is allowed and welcome to hand pick rock from the spillway to move to
gatekeeper. We do have SMUD permission for that.

There is also a YJ? top near the spillway that needs to be hauled out.

Scott"

[JoshC]

Originally Posted by MellowYellow

...I couldn't believe a discussion like blasting the gate keeper could possibly have been made without more fuss. Now I see pictures of dust in the air. odd.

I remember being asked about adopting sections of the'Con and that GateKeeper was one of the areas that needed attention. I know that we offered up our services and were either ignored or maybe just dismissed.

Makes me sick!

[Tinman]

Gee, I guess conspiracy has come to the FOTR and four wheeling. How is it a blasting project goes on with notice the day after even though FOTR was there and all the while threads are disappearing. I've been trying to post for two days on this thread and the "Standard rig" thread with no luck. PM to Lance to ask if there's a problem with my acocunt. No response.

Hmmmm??

Maybe somebody's practicing for a run for elected office.

[Tinman]

...and now it works.

Weird.

[mike]

Lance is in Australia IIRC, but it is distressing that there was such little notice. Josh, I agree I don't think we ever got any responce BTW.

[Tinman]

I stand corrected on Lance.

[k5chevyblazer]

Shanghaied once again.

[randii]

FWIW, this was discussed at the ROC meeting earlier this month, but it was discussed without a definite timeframe, as it required Forest Service and County staff to get together for some paperwork. I'm flat-out amazed that it happened this fast.

I have yet to see good pics, but if they did what they were discussing, it was surface-blasting three large boulders to bring them down closer to level with the planned grade, when it is raised back up to the level of the FOTR concrete. The large cobble and rip-rap should allow the artesian water to drain better.

For the record, I'm not happy with how this got done, and believe that FOTR could have filled around the boulders (now blasted), but we did not. Trying to suss out the best plan forward, I suggest:
* we should go ahead and cooperate to cobble/rip-rap Gatekeeper
* we push teh Forest Service and County to try every solution possible before blasting, and be even more proactive with our volunteer efforts

Randii

[k5chevyblazer]

I am going to try to get up there this Saturday to get some pics

[RCKRATZ]

I think the question everyone is asking is that if this was a possibility a month ago, why did it never get discussed on here or the FOTR list? I can't help but think that I somehow deleted that discussion????

[LandCroozer]

Is this thread about secret work at Gatekeeper, the Forest Service not listening to us, or about other threads being deleted?

-t

[1uglyranger]

Originally Posted by LandCroozer

Is this thread about secret work at Gatekeeper, the Forest Service not listening to us, or about other threads being deleted?

-t

All of the above