Women in the military...

[Roxywheels]

Yes, I realize this will start a $hit storm and it doesn't it isn't in any way meant to disrespect them. I have female friends that serve and I have the utmost respect for what they do. I just observed something today that I had to chuckle about but at the same time am frightened by it because it kind of affects Roberts safety.

Robert left today for a month of training. I took him on base and hung out while they were attempting to organize the clusterf**k that call the Army There in one female in their small group. Nice enough little girl, but just kinda of clueless. The guys are getting ready to go to another area to wait for their bus and they all begin to put their packs on. The chick, who is probably about 5ft or so and fairly small has her bag stuffed with snacks. No biggie, Robert had his fair share, as well as I'm sure the others did. She wasn't able to put her pack on without help. She struggled with picking it up. Then she attempted to snap it on and it was so heavy that it was pulling backwards and she didn't have the strength to pull it forward and secure it on her person. The guys had to help her, which is cool, but at the same time is kind of scary. If she can't do that without help, what else is there she can't do. Will they have to continually stop to help her, endangering themselves at some point when they are in Iraq? Is my husband gonna get shot because there is a chick there that can't perform the basic tasks that is required of them. A couple of the guys even joked about her at one point, saying *she's gonna get someone killed some day*

I am a firm believer that women should be able to do any job a man can do, but they should be held to the same standards as that man, including physical requirements. If the man has to run 10 miles in X about of time, she should have to do the same.

Discuss

[Otto Man]

Yep. Women want equal rights....but they bitch when it doesn't go their way.

Trying to keep women from bitching is like getting piggy to use spellcheck. Yeah, it's a nice thought that happens in 123 Utopia Drive, but it ain't ever gonna fuckin' happen.

[Bubba Ray Boudreaux]

I am a firm believer that women should be able to do any job a man can do, but they should be held to the same standards as that man, including physical requirements. If the man has to run 10 miles in X about of time, she should have to do the same.

I can agree with that to a point. Some people think women shouldn't be in law enforcement, but the ones that I have had dealings with and one of my coworkers is female, have all been pretty good, but it's apples and oranges.

"Boys have a penis and girls have a vagina" kind of rings true in this discussion. I guess I could also throw out "what happens in the field stays in the field" also.

But in the true interest of this discussion, I haven't really agreed with women in the military and if I was to change my mind, it would be a policy where they would never see field time and their job really doesn't have a bit to do with the warfighting capibility. Stick 'em in DIV HQ/Finance/Mess Hall.

Here are my reason's why, which I formulated after seeing firsthand during my time in:

Hygiene. While in the field, females were transported to shower facilities every three days. This took transportation away from vital duties, and during one FTX, we were required to run convoy escort for them. Now the ass in the grass pseudo grunt that I was at the time appreciated getting stuck on that duty, since it meant that me and my driver could hit the shower also, the bigger picture looking me realized what this did for the unit. In a combat situation, I would hope that the commanders on the ground would realize what stupidity this situation was and shower facilities were in place within the perimeter. Imagine what one bad guy with a little motivation could do to a convoy of several trucks in that situation?

The "P" word. I once saw an E-5 taken out of the field right in the middle of the exercise due to this. That's a good chunk of manpower right there. I could only imagine what that could have done in any of my platoons if an E-5 was taken out due to that since most of them were eternally blessed to be shorthanded anyway.

I once read a book called "The Seeds of War." It's been years since I've read the book, but the military at the time (story was set well into the future), allowed women into any job. IIRC, the military also had a procedure to eliminate the "P" word from ever cropping up. I could see where if anything like that was ever developed to be 100% effective, and the female was physically able to do the job required, then let 'em do it; but like I first mentioned, the guys are gonna be into more bush than the vegetative kind while out in the field. That's just the way things are.

Hell, any person with an interest in the war side of things probably has read about wartime prostitution. They are always around and probably will be around 'til the end of time. I'm pretty sure my uncle who was in 'Nam spent some MPC on some boom boom down in the ville on his offtime, while his wife was at home. I'm sure my grandfather got to taste the flavors of Europe while he was traveling through in the early forties.

In the end, outside of keeping women to jobs that keep them out of the field and in jobs that don't affect the warfighting abilities of the unit; I don't believe women should be in the military.

[ranger]

Being in the military for a good spell and dealing with quite a few "women in the military issues", I can say this, there are certain jobs that people can do, and others they can't. I have had women that could out perform other male counterparts, but most that is the exception. As a matter of fact I can count them on one hand.
Would the military be better without them? I strongly believe so.

[Paul Gagnon]

I believe that women should not be in the combat arms.

[Frankenyota]

Roxy I'd say your obervations are right on. Women in the military want "equality" only when it suits them. They have different weight and fitness standards, different dress and appearance standards, different stregth standards, etc. The only area they seem to want true equality is pay. What man gets to work 4 hour days for 6 months due to pregnancy, or gets a month of paternity leave? I have no problem with women in appropriate jobs (admin, finance, medical) but they have no business in combat arms, or many support functions (any requiring physical strength or stamina). It's pretty much a non issue in maintenance where I work, we have maybe 1 female per 50 males. They all get stuck in cushy office jobs anyway.

[JeepingEaglesChick]

I agree with you Roxy, I feel women should have to do the EXACT same things as men and if they cannot do it then they shouldn't be out there.

[Nightshade]

My view is a bit different than what I see others saying.

I think if they want to be in combat then let them...but...they train the same as men and pass the same physical requirements. running, lifting etc. all is to the same standards so there is never any question as to fitness in the field or ability to hold their own.

All women in the military should have the opportunity to test, but if they fail to pass they get support duty the same as any man who does not pass.

Plain and simple any person in the field who cannot carry their weght and holds up the unit is a danger to both themselves and their entire unit. I wouldn't want that person in my unit regardless if they are male, female, straight or gay.

[OakieOffroad85]

The fact is. Men and Women were created equal BUT in different aspects of life. Men are good at different things than women are good at. Why cant people just accept that. I do things that my girlfriend could never do but she does things that i could never do.

I dont udnerstand why women want to go into the combat part of the military. Not a good idea in my opinion. Same thing with women cops. How do you expect a woman to fight a 250lb big ass black guy that just got out of jail. Theres no way in freakin hell shes gonna be able to fight him. That is a place for a man. Fawk all those damn femenists or whatever their called trying to make women like men. Stupid fawks all their doing is getting people hurt.

[sleepertoy]

It's my own observation that women in general have been kinda fucked over by the feminist movement. More good than bad has come from it for sure (voting, being on equal(er) footing for jobs and civil rights etc.) However, it's also screwed up our countries sex identification and roles. Stupid shit is now expected of both men and women because of it. Men particularily are held to a giant double standard now days in my opinion and we've largely been castrated by PERVERTED feminism (as opposed to constructive feminism). I think a lot of men these days are left wondering what our role in society really is anymore....

I served my time in the Army as well. This was 92-96 post Desert Shield so realatively speaking it was a quiet time aside from Somalia and Haiti. I think we saw a big upswing in recruitment and acceptance of women then. Now that shit is hitting the fan again, it's clear we are paying some consequences. When I was in no women were allowed in combat arms and I feel that is the right policy but not for the same reasons stated above... though the physical argument has plenty of merit. The one thing I'd point out is that there are a lot of guys unfit physically that slide and guys can be small too yet still meet army fitness standards for their size etc. As a specific example. A little guy can often easily do more pushups, situps, and run faster than a big guy... but can he haul the big guy off the line if he got injured? maybe not. The candy thing is disgusting though, any sensible person would drop some gear. I did it all the time and everyone did. Order's say I'm packing my field jacket to Ft. Irwin in August with me... yeah fucking right. Candy? I can buy fucking candy anywhere, or get my buddy to stick it in his ruck.

Soldiers (especially combat arms) have a specific culture that is extremely unfriendly to women in my opinion. The kind of stuff that goes on or has the potential to go on a long ways from home on a dark night somewhere is problematic. Even in peacetime I witnessed a lot of very unprofessional activity between sexes that landed people in jail, kicked out or divorced etc.

Sure, there are women who can survive in an environment like this and aren't afraid of what people will say about them or do or not do to them but why would you want to subject yourself to this kinda crap? I personally just don't get it.

By the way, I don't condone or defend this type of stuff but given human nature I don't think you can cure it. Besides, soldiering is one of the few things left than men have that is fundamentally still theirs alone. Why not let us keep it?

[JoshTurner]

Originally Posted by sleepertoy

It's my own observation that women in general have been kinda fucked over by the feminist movement. More good than bad has come from it for sure (voting, being on equal(er) footing for jobs and civil rights etc.) However, it's also screwed up our countries sex identification and roles. Stupid shit is now expected of both men and women because of it. Men particularily are held to a giant double standard now days in my opinion and we've largely been castrated by PERVERTED feminism (as opposed to constructive feminism). I think a lot of men these days are left wondering what our role in society really is anymore....

I served my time in the Army as well. This was 92-96 post Desert Shield so realatively speaking it was a quiet time aside from Somalia and Haiti. I think we saw a big upswing in recruitment and acceptance of women then. Now that shit is hitting the fan again, it's clear we are paying some consequences. When I was in no women were allowed in combat arms and I feel that is the right policy but not for the same reasons stated above... though the physical argument has plenty of merit. The one thing I'd point out is that there are a lot of guys unfit physically that slide and guys can be small too yet still meet army fitness standards for their size etc. As a specific example. A little guy can often easily do more pushups, situps, and run faster than a big guy... but can he haul the big guy off the line if he got injured? maybe not. The candy thing is disgusting though, any sensible person would drop some gear. I did it all the time and everyone did. Order's say I'm packing my field jacket to Ft. Irwin in August with me... yeah fucking right. Candy? I can buy fucking candy anywhere, or get my buddy to stick it in his ruck.

Soldiers (especially combat arms) have a specific culture that is extremely unfriendly to women in my opinion. The kind of stuff that goes on or has the potential to go on a long ways from home on a dark night somewhere is problematic. Even in peacetime I witnessed a lot of very unprofessional activity between sexes that landed people in jail, kicked out or divorced etc.

Sure, there are women who can survive in an environment like this and aren't afraid of what people will say about them or do or not do to them but why would you want to subject yourself to this kinda crap? I personally just don't get it.

By the way, I don't condone or defend this type of stuff but given human nature I don't think you can cure it. Besides, soldiering is one of the few things left than men have that is fundamentally still theirs alone. Why not let us keep it?

I didnt read all of the posts...But heres my two cents...

If your willing to die for the USA your worth being in the Military...Dosent matter if your Male,female,lesbian,gay...If your any of the last 4 & you want to be in the Military then your a 100% better person than anyone that hasnt,dosent, or wont be in the Military...Only exception are the folks that want to/would but cant due to health

On that point....Yes everyone has special needs...Woman needs special stuff & guys well guy just need what they need...If it take giving a female what she needs to have& have her fight for what the Govt says they need to then go for it...

[resolute6]

I've been in the Army 21 years, and served all over the world.

I'm in the medical field, and have spent time in Infantry units, Support Commands, MASH hospitals, helicopter (evacuation) battalions, as a staff weenie in garrison, and in fixed-facility hospitals.

There is definitely a place for women in the Army today, IMHO we would not have "the greatest Army in the world" without the women who are serving today.

I agree with Paul; women should not be in the combat arms. That is a _hard_ life -- I know, I've lived it. Yet ... I have personally served with women, who after convoying 96 hours straight through the desert (about 1/3 of the vehicles driven by women, HMMWV and 5-ton towing loads), worked immediately for 24 hrs straight getting a MASH hospital established. I have lots more examples of endurance / competence / intelligence. Most female Soldiers, like most male Soldiers, will not use their physical limitations to get ahead -- they will do their best to minimize them to get their job done.

Roxy, the situation you described kind of makes me wonder where that female's NCO leadership was ... who inspected her load? What the hell was she doing carrying all that excess crap when she had difficulty with the required items?



I'm just happy to be where I'm at, serving with some great Soldiers ... regardless of gender.

Best,

Dave

[APRILRAZZ]

Women should not be in combat. Period. I don't want to risk the lives of any of my guys because they feel the need(yes it is a natural response for a man) to protect me. I am going to a war ship as a corpsman. Do I expect someone to carry my seabag for me? No. I packed it I have to carry it. If I can't it gets left on the pier.

[usmcdoc14]

Strait, gay, male, female.

If you can do you job and hold your own, you will be part of my military.


If you can not I will remove your liability fucking self from my unit.

I posted my veiws on women in combat (infantry) once before. I can search for it if you like. Basicly is says women in infantry will not work, most of those reasons are listed above. Its a great idea that does not work at this time.

[Sheri]

I was a 68B Turbine Engine Mechanic, we had a couple of girls that did real well in school but sucked big time in the unit. But we also had a bunch of wimp pussy boys that were far worse. The girls went to light duty desk jobs for support and the guys got pillow party's... If you can't hack it you won't be in that MOS very long they will transfer you...

[Blame Canada]

I think it's great.

There was a post on here not to long ago about foreign chicks in military uniforms. They were HOT!!!

[qwiksilver]

I was in the military and this was an issue that we girls got beat in the head with. I went in just after the military integrated women in and we caught hell from the men we trained with. I was in the closest thing to combat a woman could get at the time - military police. We were trained as a light infantry unit. We girls made it, but we had to grunt twice as hard as the men. For that reason, I think women should stay out of infantry units. Women just are not men. (Thank the gods!)

The little girl you are talking about is only partly to blame. Point the finger up the line to her superiors who chose to endanger the rest of her platoon with her presence. Tell your hubby to get with his buds and go to their chain of command and prove this woman is not combat capable. No gender slur, for there are a few men out there that should never have made it past Basic Training too, just a troop that is incapable of completing her task on her own.

The girl needs suck up, be a woman and go to her superiors as well and let them know she needs a transfer to another MOS. She needs to put her platoon buddies before her ego. Sometimes a woman, no matter how equal she wants to be, has to admit she's not a man. There are physical differences between men and women (vive la difference!) that just cannot be legislated away.

Takes a strong woman to get down, grunt and do it. Takes an even stronger woman to stand up and say, "I tried. It's beyond my abilities."

I remember getting cat-calls and a bunch of shit while I was down in that red Alabama mud learning how to low crawl or getting small rocks chucked at my helmet while on the range. Makes it hard to concentrate on your shot while getting thunked in the head. The drills turned a blind eye to the harrassment we got. We were teased mercilessly because our PT requirements were less than the men's. We decided as a platoon to pass the men's requirements. We did. I threw up after the run...but I did it.

Something I did learn in Basic about the difference between men and women that has stuck with me to this day and probably caused a little more than a bit of anxiety:

If a man screws up his buddies razz the hell out of him and the world moves on.

If a woman screws up no one, man or woman, forgives her - ever.

Women can't screw up in a man's world.

[Rat~Man]

We had this corn fed chick in my platoon, she could outshoot most of us and was amoung the fastest through any course we ran. We were all happy to have her. One girl who washed out was simply too small/weak to perform. Under pressure from Latonya (the big girl) she alibi'd out to another unit into a non combat role. Worked out for everyone. I would not have been happy to have to have jumped into combat with someone who couldn't tote her combat gear without help. However, I'd have been (and was) happy to jump in with LaTonya anyday of the week, she could carry her own weight and if needed,cover my back we well.

Some folks have it, some dont.

[ironpig70]

roxy this is not just a military thing its an everyday thing. women want equal rights but don't want the equal work that goes with it. don't wanna sound harsh but there are certain jobs that are not for women.

[Roxywheels]

Originally Posted by resolute6

Roxy, the situation you described kind of makes me wonder where that female's NCO leadership was ... who inspected her load? What the hell was she doing carrying all that excess crap when she had difficulty with the required items?



I'm just happy to be where I'm at, serving with some great Soldiers ... regardless of gender.

Best,

Dave

Their NCO's are a joke. They are out for number one and only number one...everyone and everything else falls to the wayside. I've been around the military all my life and my ex was a Marine, so I've seen good leadership and bad...Robert is under some bad leadership. When he gets frustrated I keep telling him it isn't like this everywhere. I understand that movements like this are always a hurry up and wait situation, but I've watched things this past couple weeks and wonder if it was this screwed up just to go to another state, what the hell will it be like when they leave for Iraq?

I realize that this girl is not all to blame. She wasn't even informed as to being able to pack her kevlar vest and was the only one wearing it. It should have been packed in another one of her bags that she has already checked in. Or maybe she was informed and just says she didn't know to cover up her screw ups?

[zakk]

Originally Posted by Roxywheels

I am a firm believer that women should be able to do any job a man can do, but they should be held to the same standards as that man, including physical requirements. If the man has to run 10 miles in X about of time, she should have to do the same.

Your are correct.

[DEnd]

Women would do great in the military. Just send a bunch of Naked women across enemy lines to distract 'em while we pound the shit out of the enemy from the rear.


uhhh...

[troxy18]

Stuff like this makes me glad I have always been in some form of combat arms unit. For a while when I first got in the army national guard my unit was one of the few in my corner of the state and to keep from having female guard soldiers from driving all over the state they were attached to my unit for drill weekends and training, they did create a lot of unnecessary drama, but I am glad now that the state reorganized so that no females drill with us.

[Landmonster]

Yeah...

But...

[ironpig70]

Originally Posted by DEnd

Women would do great in the military. Just send a bunch of Naked women across enemy lines to distract 'em while we pound the shit out of the enemy from the rear.


uhhh...

sounds very ummm gay