Do Event Organizers notify participants of Trail Routes and restrictions?

[PJohnson]

Organizers - Do you tell your participants about the trail route and restrictions?

Does FOTR or ROC or anyone else provide information to Event Organizers that they can provide to participants?

The reason for my questions comes from pictures being posted from a recent event (yeah, Ya'll can figure which event) that clearly show participants using an illegal route (albeit a previously well used and common bypass) around Little Sluice.

I chose to post here because I honestly didn't want the issue to ruin a very cool picture thread.

Phil

[Rubicrawler]

IIRC there's usually a stock of Maps at the Kiosk that show the most current allowed route. You can also get them from any of the EDNF Ranger Stations.

What I tell people is to simply stay on the trail and off any spur roads or bypasses except the 2 available at the Little Sluice. I recommend the bypass to the north.

Bottom line to be safe: Stay on the established trail, stay within 25 feet of the centerline of the trail and only park your rig 1 vehicle length from the trail.

This will keep your participants informed. Now, weather they abide by these new rules is another story

[Rollie]

Originally Posted by PJohnson

Organizers - Do you tell your participants about the trail route and restrictions?

Does FOTR or ROC or anyone else provide information to Event Organizers that they can provide to participants?

The reason for my questions comes from pictures being posted from a recent event (yeah, Ya'll can figure which event) that clearly show participants using an illegal route (albeit a previously well used and common bypass) around Little Sluice.

I chose to post here because I honestly didn't want the issue to ruin a very cool picture thread.

Phil

PM the thread to me

[welndmn]

Originally Posted by Rollie

PM the thread to me

You sleeping today Ron?
Lets think, what big event happened this weekend.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=591742

[Rollie]

Originally Posted by welndmn

You sleeping today Ron?
Lets think, what big event happened this weekend.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=591742

Allot on my mind. Hadn't gotten there yet.

[PJohnson]

That's the thread...

Mark - I know information is available, but I would bet no maps were picked up by participants. A lot of folks probably come to the Rubicon once a year and they "know" where the trail is. Unless someone puts it in thier hands and tells them about restrictions, they'll never know (until they get blasted in a picture thread for it).

I think most events have registration packets that could contain some route information. Of course, this only works if the packet is mailed prior to the event as opposed to picked up in the Springs.

There are also Trail Leaders that should be informing as well as Leading participants on the correct routes. I don't know if the vehicles on the illegal route were part of an official run or not, but that's not an excuse anyway.

Maybe someone from FOTR (or ROC?) could be contacting event organizers and providing info for the partcipants and Trail Leaders?

I suppose it would be helpful to know how many events beside JJ happen each year where pushing out information might be effective. Does anybody know? ( I exclude JJ because of how many Trail Guides they utilize all throughout the trail and they definitely ought to know already)

Phil

[MiniSimp]

I know Marlin does
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=32954.0

[tacomamike]

Originally Posted by PJohnson

Organizers - Do you tell your participants about the trail route and restrictions?

This is what I handed out to everyone last year on a trip we put together:

http://www.norcalttora.com/~mike/mis...lyer_rev_3.doc

We still had to remind a few of our guys along the way. Nobody was cited on that particular trip, crossing my fingers this year.

Later,
....Mike
http://www.toy4x4.net/

[PJohnson]

Cool. I was hoping people were sending out stuff.

Originally Posted by MiniSimp

I know Marlin does
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=32954.0

That's great, but I wonder how many people say, " I already know Tread Lightly" and never click the links?

Now, if the title was something like.. "Rubicon Trail Route restrictions, MUST READ". And then linked to this page http://www.delalbright.com/Rubicon/easement.htm , I would think it would be more effective. What do you think?

Mike's flyer is a lot more specific. If I were a participant, I would have no excuses if I got a ticket. Especially if the Trail Leader made everyone read it before hitting the trail.

Phil

[MiniSimp]

Originally Posted by PJohnson

That's great, but I wonder how many people say, " I already know Tread Lightly" and never click the links?

Now, if the title was something like.. "Rubicon Trail Route restrictions, MUST READ". And then linked to this page http://www.delalbright.com/Rubicon/easement.htm , I would think it would be more effective. What do you think?

Phil

Not sure, I wen't through and re-read all of del's stuff right before I went, and I'll probably do the same before I go next time.

[woooody]

A little help? Which picture is off trail?

Some of those pictures are from "outlaw" runs, not the specific Rubithon runs.

[PJohnson]

Post #23

As I understand it (and I'll edit all comments if I'm wrong) the section of trail around the left (North) side of LS is not the designated route.

I think it's commonly thought of as a legal bypass because people have been using it for years.

Phil

[randii]

Originally Posted by PJohnson

Mark - I know information is available, but I would bet no maps were picked up by participants. A lot of folks probably come to the Rubicon once a year and they "know" where the trail is. Unless someone puts it in thier hands and tells them about restrictions, they'll never know (until they get blasted in a picture thread for it).

Friends of the Rubicon (FOTR) and Rubicon Trail Patrol (RTP) are working to get that information out, but at some point, it comes down to individual responsibility. Individuals should do some research before they run the trail, especially if their use is only once per year -- access changes that fast.

FOTR will be putting up signs at the trailheads shortly that we have MANY, MANY hours into working with user groups, County, and Forest Service representatives -- the County is using our map to print out 50,000 new map hand-outs, as well. These trailhead maps and hand-out maps should augment the not-fully-correct-but-still-legally-actionable USFS Motorized Restriction Maps that have been handed out in the past. It should make the information more accessible, but users will still have to LOOK at it.

Originally Posted by PJohnson

Maybe someone from FOTR (or ROC?) could be contacting event organizers and providing info for the partcipants and Trail Leaders?

This is a reasonable idea, but the default has been to encourage users (whether individual or event) to PULL information, as opposed to relying on FOTR or the agencies to PUSH it. We can try to do both, but the users need to be as well informed as possible, regardless.

Randii

[woooody]

Originally Posted by PJohnson

Post #23

As I understand it (and I'll edit all comments if I'm wrong) the section of trail around the left (North) side of LS is not the designated route.

I think it's commonly thought of as a legal bypass because people have been using it for years.

Phil

Phil -- The "rim" above LS was stated as being a legal bypass in other threads in the Rubicon forum. Those pictures are "million dollar" hill, or $10K hill, or what ever. Is it the drop down the hill that is in question? I took the line to the right (the "loop"?) and wound up flopping in the crevice. I was never aware that the drop down the hill was in question?

[woooody]

This is the thread that I was talking about:

http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=591501

"There are two bypasses around the box that the Forest Service will not ticket. One is just to the North (Left) of the box, on the ridge trail that peers down into the box at the tail end."

[randii]

Originally Posted by PJohnson

Post #23
As I understand it (and I'll edit all comments if I'm wrong) the section of trail around the left (North) side of LS is not the designated route.

The pictures are of Thousand Dollar Hill, which isn't on USFS land. From the Motorized Restriction Map:

FWIW and FYI, this is available in its entirety at:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/map...5-07_north.pdf
A couple of notes:
* just because it is on private property doesn't make it a free-for-all; we need to treat the resource with respect wherever it lies
* the long bypass to the north, if they took that, instead of *poof* appearing at the top of Thousand Dollar Hill *poof* is technically illegal, per the Motorized Restriction Map.

Originally Posted by PJohnson

I think it's commonly thought of as a legal bypass because people have been using it for years.

Exactly right.
FOTR is fighting to get that changed within the Route Designation Process, but we have yet to see the final maps to know for sure, and technically, it can be enforced to the map. If anybody gets a ticket on that route, I'd love to see it appealed.

Randii

[woooody]

Isn't this the hill in question?

If so, I don't see any bypasses listed for LS. That round thing is the water at the base of the hill, right?

[randii]

Originally Posted by woooody

Isn't this the hill in question? If so, I don't see any bypasses listed for LS. That round thing is the water at the base of the hill, right?

Yes, no, and yes.

Regarding that no, when the FS rushed to do their initial Motorized Restriction Map, they put only the routes of which they were most sure from their system, and omitted many routes on private property. There are many mistakes on the map. Many people have interpreted many things from what's on the Motorized Restriction Map, but it is pretty much conjecture beyond stating that USFS was in a rush to get a map out so that they could meet Judge Karlton's decision on the lawsuit. The likely other alternative was to close the forest, entirely.

For reference, here's what FOTR is prepping for the County to distrubute:

Note the differences in bypasses/alternates listed in gray. These are the routes or alternates that *I* am recommending, those that I feel can be justified even in a conservative interpretation of the County's claim to the "Rubicon Trail and its variants," but the Motorized Restriction Map is the letter of law, to which enforcement may technically choose to ticket, in their various jurisdictions.

Randii

[woooody]

So, technically, Old Sluice is Off Trail?!?

[PJohnson]

Randii - thanks for clarifying the route and FOTR's efforts to make information available. I had no idea that that area was actually private land.

I do think pushing information where possible will increase the effectiveness of FOTR's efforts to inform and it may also provide new opportunities to engage more users. The easiest place to start is with organized events.

Thanks for all the time and effort you put in to the maps. (and everything else)

Phil

[PJohnson]

Originally Posted by woooody

So, technically, Old Sluice is Off Trail?!?

As I read his map, Old Sluice is an acceptable bypass to the Slabs. If it were not, he would have marked it with a yellow marker (?)

Phil

[peesalot]

Ross, I see 2 different spots being talked about.

1) That 1K dollar hill sequence of everyone comin down, the area above that drop has 3 routes to get down. 1 = the drop , 2 = the loop, 3 = the loop but drop in 1/2 way cause first part of loop is tough. I was under the impression that the drop was the trail and the loop was created to pass the dreaded 1K hill.

2) the LS bypass that keeps to the top of ridge. Not the old one that looped around the tree and across the slab. Not the current one that runs just next to the box. But the one you see people use when you are standing at the end of the current bypass and you look up as you see someones rollbar disappear into bushes and you think, " where are they goin ? " . Then they are ahead of you at 1K hill.

[cruzila]

Originally Posted by PJohnson

As I read his map, Old Sluice is an acceptable bypass to the Slabs. If it were not, he would have marked it with a yellow marker (?)

Phil

I believe the yellow marker is an HLZ (official helicopter landing zone as per the not yet released RTMP) This is the problem with so many people asking for clarification and trying to get information out there. This thing is not finished. The FS is under court order to keep people on roads. The County has not completed the Master Plan. Route Designation is on process. This year will go down as the year of the cluster !@#$ on the Rubicon.

[woooody]

There are 3 lz's in the springs now. Or maybe they've been there all along? I've only ever noticed one, but they have 3 painted BRIGHT yellow now.

[pismojim]

Originally Posted by PJohnson

The reason for my questions comes from pictures being posted from a recent event (yeah, Ya'll can figure which event) that clearly show participants using an illegal route (albeit a previously well used and common bypass) around Little Sluice.

and...

Post #23

As I understand it (and I'll edit all comments if I'm wrong) the section of trail around the left (North) side of LS is not the designated route.

I think it's commonly thought of as a legal bypass because people have been using it for years.

Phil,

If I'm following this correctly it looks like, from your point of view, the drop at Million Dollar Hill is part of the far left North bypass. I've never heard of this interpretation and always thought the drop at Million Dollar Hill was after all of the LS bypasses. The drop is certainly used by most folks who come up the proper LS bypasses. Seeing rigs on the drop doesn't mean they drove around the far North route. I'm not aware of any of the event groups using this bypass and yes it was discussed as being "illegal".

It was my experience that the Rubithon event organizers and trail leaders took great care to abide by the admittedly ambiguous trail designation rules.