The fence just past the spillway

[Rock Tractor]

I think FOTR needs to disasemble it.
I know that this post is late in coming.
That day we were working up on WalkerHill and I was beating the Hell out of my rig hauling rocks for the diferent crews, I had NO idea that there was another group building a FENCE on the Rubicon Trail. I just could'nt believe what I saw when we came back out and I saw it. I was embarassed to be a part of the organization that was behind it.
I'm not quite sure who exactly were the folks that were behind the decision to build it. But you guys better start having the ALL OR NOTHING attitude because thats what the other side has.

If the people that own the property around there don't want to let us have access, then they are not Friends of The Rubicon.
I believe WE should be able to have access to ALL of the country and thats what all my letters and comments say and have said.

[resqme]

So let me understand this (and this is not an argument for or against the fence...I am interested in how those comments go and will form an opinion). You think that your rights exceed those of a private property owner?

How about if I wander through your house whenever I want?

[trkklr77]

i dont think it was a private prop owner, but a another 4x4 group?

[the way i read it]

[resqme]

The fence was put up by FOTR in order to keep people from driving on USFS and private land.

You were working up at Walker where FOTR folks dragged a large log into place to block an illegal bypass last year. We (FOTR) make efforts all the time to block illegal bypasses (and that is what this is, an illegal bypass that crosses both USFS and private land)...why is this different?

[Rock Tractor]

Don't worry, you can be proud that you helped build the First fence when they close the trails down.

[Simple Man]

I'm hoping this thread was started as a joke.


Let's start with some history...

The reason the Eldorado Forest is under a court order to close the non-system roads is because some OHV users were riding across private property. It didn't help that the property was the front lawn of an anti-ohv activist.

She sued (due to lack of an OHV plan) and the judge ordered the entire forest closed to OHV use until the FS created an OHV mamangement plan. We (CA4WDC & BRC) convinced the judge that the OHV community shouldn't be punished because the FS failed to have a working OHV plan. We were then allowed on only the numbered system roads.

In order to prevent future lawsuits and forest closures, we (Rubicon Trail users) are working with the FS, with the county and with the private land owners.

The lower trail around the Gatekeeper was an unauthorized route across FS land and also went across private property. It also followed a creek and was creating environmental damage. It was not a system road. It was blocked off during an FOTR work weekend.

FOTR does not support illegal or irresponsible activities by OHV users.

If you, or we, take the all or nothing attitude, we will get nothing. We lost nothing with the fence because we never had the lower trail. It was illegal.

There are more private property parcels around the Rubicon Trail. The Rubicon Trail goes across at least two of them. We would like to work with the land owners so someday we might be able to build new, legal, environmentally sound trails. Maybe even establish some better off trail campgrounds. This won't happen if we tear up their land.

If you have more questions, please post up so we can talk about them.


Doug

[Rock Tractor]

I am very aware of whats going on, and when we loose more and more I want you guys to go sit on Your fence and think about it.

[Hyena]

Originally Posted by Rock Tractor

I am very aware of whats going on, and when we loose more and more I want you guys to go sit on Your fence and think about it.

wow, you imaze me. the fence is there to stop vehicles from going onto FS and private property which is what is causing the trails to get shut down. Why do you not agree with this? Do you want the trail to be shut down?

[randii]

FOTR has been trying to block that low route for years to prevent bypass around Gatekeeper... each time, our efforts were undone. Finally, with the Forest Service and private property owners insisting something had to be done, we constructed the LIMITED range fence that you now see, in as few areas as possible, where less-invasive trail markings have proved insufficient.

We posted an explanation in this case:


This fence is intended as an OBVIOUS trail marker for those not in the know, but FOTR is also working hard with the various agencies to publish usable maps of the trail, and install reflectors and signs along the trail.

FWIW, there's more discussion on this at: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=592836 -- I really like the discussion that users need to be more pro-active to learn the trail and stay on it.

Originally Posted by Rock Tractor

But you guys better start having the ALL OR NOTHING attitude because thats what the other side has.

That's where we beat them, IMHO, we highlight their one-sided approach. In a room full of rational people, the anti-access folks come across shrill and misguided, and we can present consistent evidence of where we are willing to work together...

Originally Posted by Rock Tractor

If the people that own the property around there don't want to let us have access, then they are not Friends of The Rubicon. I believe WE should be able to have access to ALL of the country and thats what all my letters and comments say and have said.

I'm not sure I'm getting what you are saying, here... I think private property rights are a BIG deal, and are pretty well in synch with our fight to retain access, for the most part. PUBLIC property access rights are important, as well, but we have to balance our fight there...

Randii

[randii]

I'll admit that I was slow to warm to the fence project... the last thing I want to see on Rubicon is fences (or gates!). The forest service was continuing to bitch about this unapproved route, and it was threatening the main route, so we researched the usage, and found that this alternate route crossed private land, with public land on either side, and that it was a fairly recent trail addition. Then we thought back over all of the many times we have tried to close the route in the past with rocks and logs... and decided to try a fence.

Heck, I hope one day to be able to take down that fence -- it is an eyesore, even if it is made of native materials. Pulling that fence would require ALL users to know where the trail is and stay fully on it.

I hope that our trail marking and trail mapping efforts will get us there...

Randii

[Rock Tractor]

Originally Posted by Hyena

wow, you imaze me. the fence is there to stop vehicles from going onto FS and private property which is what is causing the trails to get shut down. Why do you not agree with this? Do you want the trail to be shut down?

Ya, your right. Thats why the trails that Very few folks have even been on/used in years will be closed very soon. All the old logging roads that are used very infrequently are gonna be closed.
So it's because somebody went off road

What next, build fences at Buck?
So you guys are into building fences for the Forest service and Land owners with FOTR man power and funds, WOW.

[Danger Ranger]

I think I get the point of this thread rock tractor started... using fotr man power to do the fs dirty work. Kinda of like using OHV funds to close trails. think about it

[Simple Man]

FOTR repairs the trail for the county.

FOTR (RTF) writes grants to get money for the (County) trail.

FOTR (RTP) patrols the trail for the SO.

FOTR educates users about: human waste, trail ettiquite, etc. for the County

FOTR hands out W.A.G. bags.

FOTR hands out oil spill kits.

FOTR does work for the ROC (Rubicon Oversight Committee).

FOTR works to get the county and FS on the same page working together.

FOTR puts up signs for the county and FS.


We do it to keep the trail(s) open.


FOTR blocks bypasses created by irresponsible OHV users for the FS

And we will continue to do so as long as there are OHV users who don't understand that those type of acts are what's getting our trails closed. If OHV users never went "off trail" we would not have any issues. There would be no fences, gates, lawsuits, closures, seasonal restrictions, width restrictions, blown up rocks, tickets, etc,


Doug

[MiniSimp]

Amen.

[rockwrangler]

ROCK TRACTOR
I was the one who headed up this crew to build the fence!! I got things together and i got the hardware to do the job.
Here's some facts: We had a very big problem and we tryed the normal blocking of this BY PASS and it did not WORK. Time and time again someone pushed on thru this area. The property owners and the FS were getting tired of the problem. We had a real peoblem with the area at the bottom of the property turning into a "swamp" in the spring and that swamp was introducing sediments into the Creek below Loon dam. Water quality is one VERY big no no to the FS and the green machine. It also is the quickest way to get a trail CLOSED FOR GOOD. This by pass was a VERY direct route for sediment to enter the creek and the area was getting worse by the year.

I'm sorry we had to build the fence to keep people out and IF you had or have a better IDEA Lets here it??? I know we tried education, free maps, blocking ECT. and NOTHING worked.

We FOTR talked about this area for several years! We tried to get people to keep out and it did not work. I thank you for your work on Walker and hope you keep helping efforts to keep the Rubicon open. Maybe in the future we can remove the fence once the trail is grown over in that section.

EDIT: This IS privite property and not part of the trail. How would you like someone driving thru your property across your lawn and ripping up your property?

[atvobsession]

Originally Posted by Danger Ranger

I think I get the point of this thread rock tractor started... using fotr man power to do the fs dirty work. Kinda of like using OHV funds to close trails. think about it

But that's what we do...that's the whole idea behind it. Let's face reality...the FS doesn't have the manpower or $ to maintain everything...not ideal, but reality. We know they LOVE green gates.

Volunteerism is the best way to keep stuff open...so call it dirty work or volunteerism, the net effect is the same thing.

Doug said it best...we tried signs, rocks, handouts, maps, reflectors, you name it...people still wouldn't follow the trail. That's all the fence did...was redirect people on to the trail. Ideal? No, but that's what worked.

[Danger Ranger]

I'm not questioning volunteer work, trail maint etc etc etc blah blah blah. I understand this route went through private property. I don't have a problem with blocking it off just like any other bypass, if that is what's needed to keep things in check.

I think mike's problem is with the method used to accomplish this. It's my opinion he was trying to say FOTR just set a precident by putting up a FENCE.

[rockwrangler]

Originally Posted by Danger Ranger

I'm not questioning volunteer work, trail maint etc etc etc blah blah blah. I understand this route went through private property. I don't have a problem with blocking it off just like any other bypass, if that is what's needed to keep things in check.

I think mike's problem is with the method used to accomplish this. It's my opinion he was trying to say FOTR just set a precident by putting up a FENCE.

We may HAVE set a precident by putting up the fence! But if the other ways DON'T work then what! ...................keep letting people drive where they want or put up an ugle fence to SHOW the people who are going the wrong way "LOOK" don't go this way

As far as I know there are no other places along the Rubicon where we need such a fence. This area that we fenced off is off the trail and all other attempts to stop the traffic did NOT work. So something was done about it.

[Roksamy]

IDEA (for the fence)

Seems to me like the new fence would be a great backdrop for a trail information sign / message board. Any input on this?

[randii]

Originally Posted by Danger Ranger

I think mike's problem is with the method used to accomplish this. It's my opinion he was trying to say FOTR just set a precident by putting up a FENCE.

We sweated this issue before we did it, with that exact concern. The precedent is that only if all other methods fail, after repeated attempts to implement them and educate the public, a short length of fence is a reasonable short-term solution.

The Forest Service claimed to have a grant for equipment to move large rocks to effectively block off this route. If they did so, and it stayed blocked, I'd be happy to have one big FOTR bonfire from the fence.

Randii

[Rock Tractor]

Originally Posted by Danger Ranger

I think mike's problem is with the method used to accomplish this. It's my opinion he was trying to say FOTR just set a precident by putting up a FENCE.

Yup.

[Rock Tractor]

Originally Posted by randii

The precedent is that only if all other methods fail, after repeated attempts to implement them and educate the public, a short length of fence is a reasonable short-term solution.


Randii

And Spider was a temporary closer.

[Rockodile]

Originally Posted by Rock Tractor

And Spider was a temporary closer.

Surrounded on one side by private property that was shite all over by who???? You speak as if everyones land is yours to do whatever you want to do with it? Well I am ready for your address and I am ready to come and dump my human waste in your living room every night from now until next year if you are ready to let me. If not maybe you should pull your head out of your butt and realize that we have to compromise in some ways to keep our trail open. Not get BUTT HURT because things don't go as some of us think they should. Educating the masses is going to take some patience from all of us and it will take and has took compromise on our part.

My opinion is that if you don't like it then don't be part of it. We have to bend in some ways and that "Is what it is"! You haven't lost anything compared to what the greens have taken from me. My home, my way of life and my property (20 acres). Yet I am willing to Man up and get behind a movement that is making some headway. I am willing to do whatever it takes to win back what is rightfully ours to use. If we have to compromise in some ways to achieve this then so be it. Being a hard "BLEEP" to get there lost me and many of my fellow loggers everything they had and now we have nothing to show for our fight. I may not always agree with the method or the madness but I am not going to get stuck in a rut due to a lack of flexability.

You need to cool your jets, take a step back and look at things for what they are. Many folks still have not gotten the message and many more just don't care. Until we get em on the boat things like this will happen.

FWIW I am willing to come to your house for my daily BM, if you are so open to having everything be free including your little slice of life. Otherwise stick a sock in it and look at the good we have done over the compromises we have HAD to make to keep this trail open. Make your cup half full rather then half empty.

[Rock Tractor]

Originally Posted by Rockodile

Surrounded on one side by private property that was shite all over by who???? You speak as if everyones land is yours to do whatever you want to do with it? Well I am ready for your address and I am ready to come and dump my human waste in your living room every night from now until next year if you are ready to let me. If not maybe you should pull your head out of your butt and realize that we have to compromise in some ways to keep our trail open. Not get BUTT HURT because things don't go as some of us think they should. Educating the masses is going to take some patience from all of us and it will take and has took compromise on our part.

My opinion is that if you don't like it then don't be part of it. We have to bend in some ways and that "Is what it is"! You haven't lost anything compared to what the greens have taken from me. My home, my way of life and my property (20 acres). Yet I am willing to Man up and get behind a movement that is making some headway. I am willing to do whatever it takes to win back what is rightfully ours to use. If we have to compromise in some ways to achieve this then so be it. Being a hard "BLEEP" to get there lost me and many of my fellow loggers everything they had and now we have nothing to show for our fight. I may not always agree with the method or the madness but I am not going to get stuck in a rut due to a lack of flexability.

You need to cool your jets, take a step back and look at things for what they are. Many folks still have not gotten the message and many more just don't care. Until we get em on the boat things like this will happen.

FWIW I am willing to come to your house for my daily BM, if you are so open to having everything be free including your little slice of life. Otherwise stick a sock in it and look at the good we have done over the compromises we have HAD to make to keep this trail open. Make your cup half full rather then half empty.

I'll be at the spill way this weekend.

[redpim1]

Look at it this way.. Where I come from if you get caught wheeling on privat or FS land you get arrested and your vehicle impounded. Do you want the SO there to start that on the Con?? I have only Made the 1100 mile trip out there to run the Rubicon one time and I had no trouble staying on the correct trail.. I send my thanks to all of those who work thier weekends and freetime that they have to maintaining the trails not just the Con but all of the trail systems of the US. If they have to build a fece to keep us from loosing that trail or to keep us from getting citations, arrested, vehicles impouned ect...ect...ect ... then get out of your rig when you see them and help. the trails are our coz so quit arguing about it and just wheel where they have alloted for us to wheel and thank the State, FS, private land owners and the organizations that all work together so that we have these beautiful trails. Always rember that they dont make land any more, and that your mother dosent work on the trails so clean up after yourself. Take care of what we have so our grand childrens grand children can enjoy it.