New 22re Re-build

[maetriques]

Hey all,
I'm a new member here and this is my first post. This is a great site with great people and your all appreciated. -yes I posted on the Newb intro

I just wanted to drop my specs on my 22re rebuild and gather some opinions. Let me qualify my part choices by stating that I am no mechanic and this is the first motor that I've ever built. (Hella fun though)

Ok... the facts. Ive got a 1992 22re 4x4 5spd DLX that only made it 139k. There are probably many reasons why this little truck never made it past 200k but the short of it is that I left it in the hands of some people whos idea of maintanance was to put 92 octane in the tank as opposed to 89. They put 50k on that motor without any TLC (I was out of the country). So...when the motor went I figured I'd start anew.

The truck was down for a couple years while I gathered my parts and just finished up on the motor, took about two months for me to build it. Like I said, I'm no mechanic....but my brother is so when I elected to do this, I persuaded him to do more teaching than doing (if I left it there for any length of time I would return to find a shiney completed motor under the hood...that doesnt do much for my learning curve). So with slow and educational steps, the right tools, garage and copious amounts of beer, I finally completed my first build.

The truck is factory except 31's for tires, a stronger clutch and now motor. I just finished breaking it in (500 miles of gentle driving) and will perform its second oil change and valve lashing this week.

parts (mods) are as follows:
(using Fel-Pro gaskets)

stock bottom end with crank scaper
New Pistons with total seal rings (honed but stock bore as it was within spec)
ARP head studs
Dual Timing chain kit
LC EFI Pro head (port/polished with 1mm over stock valves)
LC EFI Pro cam:
Valve Lash .008 .012
Valve Lift 440" 440"
Advertised Duration 280° 280°
Duration @ .050" 230° 230°
Lobe Center 102° 118°

LC 4n1 header with 2.25 cat back (high flow cat)
Ported and matched Intake manifold (to head)
LB throttle body (3.5mm over)
Teflon heat isolation gaskets on fuel side
LC high perf oil pump
Oil cooling kit with B&M cooler (oil filter relocation and K&N filter)
Underdrive pully's and flex fan
LC pro disty with Crane HI-6S and LX-91 coil (Magnacore wires)
AFM mod 3 teeth / EFI pro tuning kit
K&N FIPK (drilled out air entry from behind left front headlight)
changed out all the rubber vacuum for silicone
some additional bling


Now to me, this is a modest engine build, nothing too crazy but just enough mods to keep it interesting and fun for a first timer. I hope I've left some room for improvement and upgrades if needed. I did take a bit of an ass chewing from my bro about "too many mods at one time without a baseline" but I got him to grin a bit after the beer started flowing. He is a NAPA guy from the "why mess with factory engineering" school of thought (although i distincly remember a tricked out 327 with 13.5:1 compression in his garage many years ago). Be that as it may, its running and no leaks as of yet.

My next phase I suppose is to tune the sucker. This is where I sorta screwed up with no baseline (keep in mind that I built this motor BEFORE I found this cool community site). My under hood temps are a bit hot, so I'm prolly gonna do a bit of heat management there. I'm still reading up on EFI systems but the SDS system sounds fun (not sure what my limitations are yet with stock injectors, pump, regulator, return, and ECU...I'll read up). I do have a simple question, that while obvious for the motorheaded among us...i'm still a bit puzzled by, about spark plug gapping.

I'm running the hotter ignition setup and I hear that we can gap the plugs wider than factory recommendations. But it seems the gaps people are using vary greatly. Any recommendations? I think this is where I need to be led by you experienced folks out there (spark and fuel). So with that...I'm all ears and ready to have some fun with this thing.

Incidently, I'm already eyeballing some of the total chaos suspension goodies and eventually the gearing stuff (again, I'll look at the FAQ's and be led by you folks when the time comes).

The truck now (and for now) will be a daily driver...I'm into the haul ass all-pourpose desert stuff more than crawling though. I'll finish the susp and drivetrain mods just in time to give this truck to my son, hehe well, mabye just loan it to him.

[Landslide]

Great choices on your first engine build; good products and you'll have fun with it not being too much performance.

Be sure to open you heater core valve to burp out any trapped air in your cooling system. I'd recommend running a 3 core radiator (OEM for the 86-87 turbo 22re's) be sure to check your clutch fan as they do and will get weak. You can replace the fluid in the clutch if needed.

Check your timing by doing the advance bypass jumper wire. May need to bump it a degree or two with that cam profile.

Now, post some photos or e-mail them to someone to uplink them.

[maetriques]

kewl beans....heater core burped....timing set....running a flex off LC underdrive kit (no fan clutch....wait, did I miss a step?) Do I need to run a three core since I'm running an oil cooler?

I'll have some pics this week!

[AZALyota]

You wanted an opinion on parts selection. You bought the cadillac of 22re building parts, but paid NASA dollars to get it.

Be sure to let us know how that underdrive pulley setup works out in Mesa during the summertime.

[dcg9381]

Originally Posted by AZALyota

You wanted an opinion on parts selection. You bought the cadillac of 22re building parts, but paid NASA dollars to get it.

I saw this post weeks ago and thought the same thing.
It sounds like you've put some bucks into this rebuild. If you are as selective about machine work as you are about parts, it should be a great motor.

Dyno it for us so we can figure out the HP per dollar over similiarly built motors!

I'm hope you're detail oriented and had the proper tools to check all of the bores as they tend to not wear the same... Also, I wonder if LC told you that the total seal rings require a specific finish on the bore. Otherwise, they don't seat and can cause some major oil consumption.
If seated properly, they're great rings and a good addition.


My "opinion" is that the following parts are not necessary and wouldn't recommend them for a rebuild - they're not going to hurt, but my opinion is that the return on the $$ is near nill:

LB throttle body (3.5mm over) - bang for your buck, better off porting your upper and going to a 5M 60mm TB from a 5M supra... The cost of this part is returned in being bolt-on though, so I understand the mod. It's limited by the area of the AFM flapper, so I *believe* it's of limited use. ]

LC pro disty - as this has no control over timing on a 22RE, I see no reason to use it. You could claim that it's more "accurate" but accuracy is taken care of by the fact that the distributor rotor spans a number of degress and there is already a good deal of slop in the mechanical linkages between the dizzy and the crank.

Teflon heat isolation gaskets on fuel side - I don't believe for a second that these help with heat. Maybe in the first 5 minutes of start up. Note, I run this gasket also (recently), but use it because they work better than the paper gasket when pushing 15+ of boost through them - they tend to resist blow-out on forced induction motors, especially when coolant is near by. Does this keep the manifold cool? I'll let you check for yourself.

EFI pro tuning kit - Don't buy this patched up, POS, resistor on a dial.. All it does is mess with the ECU reading of engine temperature and allow you to dial "cold start" enrichment. Unless your A/F gauge says you need more fuel, don't add this by default. BTW, it's worth about $5 of parts...

High volume oil pump - I think it's unnecessary for non-turbo 22REs


Note, you did a lot of stuff right - like ARP studs and your head sounds great. The above is my quasi-constructive critcism and my opinion of building a 22RE in terms of bang for the buck...
Then again, I've put pretty good $$$ into a motor that could probably be out dyno'd by a 4.3L.

[maetriques]

ok guys...great criticizm's here! let me see if I can answer a few of these then I'll post up some pics.

"Be sure to let us know how that underdrive pulley setup works out in Mesa during the summertime"
--it definately runs hotter....temps are what they used to be when stock until you break 45mph then it starts to really warm up. This might be the flex fan flattening out though. I havnt, as of yet, installed the oil cooler (still waiting on the thermostat and figure out the mounting). Temps have not gone past the halfway mark on the stock gauge..for what its worth.

"I'm hope you're detail oriented and had the proper tools to check all of the bores as they tend to not wear the same.."
--I am, that is...I would be if I knew that I needed to be. This was my very first motor rebuild....was not sure what I was to expect. As a noob rebuild, what I ended up doing was sendng the block out to check that it was within spec...if I needed to .20 it over, or something I would have, but I was told it was not needed. So it came back with a hone job. This was my brothers buddies shop so I had this done on the cheap.

"Also, I wonder if LC told you that the total seal rings require a specific finish on the bore. Otherwise, they don't seat and can cause some major oil consumption.
If seated properly, they're great rings and a good addition.
--No they did not. I suspect that if I had more smarts on the subject, I would have known to ask. Basically, I told em I needed new pistons and rings, stock bore, and that is what they sent me. I'll keep an eye out for oil consumption...what else should I look for? And what is the special finish on the bore?

My "opinion" is that the following parts are not necessary and wouldn't recommend them for a rebuild - they're not going to hurt, but my opinion is that the return on the $$ is near nill:
LB throttle body (3.5mm over) - bang for your buck, better off porting your upper and going to a 5M 60mm TB from a 5M supra... The cost of this part is returned in being bolt-on though, so I understand the mod. It's limited by the area of the AFM flapper, so I *believe* it's of limited use. ]

--Yup I agree with this, the AFM definately chokes the benifits out. I was hoping to go with the SDS EFI though and eliminate the AFM (in the future).

LC pro disty - as this has no control over timing on a 22RE, I see no reason to use it. You could claim that it's more "accurate" but accuracy is taken care of by the fact that the distributor rotor spans a number of degress and there is already a good deal of slop in the mechanical linkages between the dizzy and the crank.

--This was just a general dizzy replace (mine was showing wear) and I thought, what the heck!

Teflon heat isolation gaskets on fuel side - I don't believe for a second that these help with heat. Maybe in the first 5 minutes of start up. Note, I run this gasket also (recently), but use it because they work better than the paper gasket when pushing 15+ of boost through them - they tend to resist blow-out on forced induction motors, especially when coolant is near by. Does this keep the manifold cool? I'll let you check for yourself.

--It took me a day to come up with the same answer. I don't believe they have helped me in my temps. I'f I'm not too hard on em though, I should be able to reuse them (thats what I'm hoping for anyway).

EFI pro tuning kit - Don't buy this patched up, POS, resistor on a dial.. All it does is mess with the ECU reading of engine temperature and allow you to dial "cold start" enrichment. Unless your A/F gauge says you need more fuel, don't add this by default. BTW, it's worth about $5 of parts...

Too late...already installed. So far I can't find the value in this little unit. the guage is fine insofar as narrow band goes. Shoulda kept the money on this one and pushed for something with wideband.

High volume oil pump - I think it's unnecessary for non-turbo 22REs

For me this was just futureproofing, in case I went with something that required more oil. I had to trim the stock timing tag so that my belts would not rub (underdrive pully kit).

For most of this, it was just fun to do. The 22re is fun to work on and (it seems) forgiving for some noob mistakes. It is a great project for this first timer.

Now let me see if I can post some pics.

[maetriques]

ok...here are the pics..

[maetriques]

and some more

[maetriques]

one more..

[maetriques]

the truck is a bit dirty but hey...pirate 4x4 right?

[maetriques]

Also, I'm working on the dyno stuff....can anybody from az recommend a good shop? And since I have never dyno'd anything, what should I be looking for?

Thanks for all the advice BTW!

[AZALyota]

If you possibly can, dyno that motor with the underdrives and then again with the stock pulleys on a second pull. I'd pitch in $5 for honest apples-to-apples comparable dyno results for those pulleys. If there's enough others equally interested you may get a free dyno trip. LC used to pimp these as big horsepower mods, but now it's just to slow the water pump down and dress up the motor.

[steveh]

How's it run? Are you pleased, because that's all that counts!!!

I bought a complete engine from DOA, and love it, Runs excellent. Tim did all nice stuff, ported the head, the EFI induction, etc. Converted to a dual row chain to keep it super reliable on the trial etc.

Anyway, tell us how you like it and how it runs. A dyno can't tell us that.

[maetriques]

Well I'm not sure of doin a dyno with stock pullies and such, just a bit cost prohibitive with new belts and gear. I would be curious though as to what the numbers would be. I havn't done the math on it, but would'nt expect much on the results. Most underdrive kits that I have seen claim no more than a 20% reduction on pump and fans...

As far as how its running, I'm very happy. I only have 600 miles on it though so I'm inclined to hold out on my evealuation until around 5 or 6k. I'm definately waiting and hoping that my rings will seat and then I can switch over to some redline or royal purple. I jumped on the throttle today in the parking lot and broke the tires loose for about 10ft...left some nice rubber.

What I notice the most while driving is that it seems like it has more "snap". The powerband has definately moved a bit with most of my power is mid-range and somewhat soft on the top end. I plan on throwing some 4.88's in it (31in tires) and I imagine that will change it somewhat again. Acceleration has increased across the board from stock. All in all, its fun to drive

[maetriques]

oh, I forgot....complaints..

My major complaint has been the exhaust system. It took some effort to line it up with stock mounts and the tailpipe rattles on the frame

Until I get that resolved, I cant tell if I have other rattles to contend with as that alone makes a lot of noise.

By the way...what do you folks prefer on exaust...Weld or clamping?

[steveh]

Sweet, it's nice to have a 4 banger that runs well. They will never be a V8, but they are a fun little engine when done right.

[maetriques]

hmmmm....got a little "rattle" in my motor goin up some hills today. Is this pinging? No performance loss, just sounded like someone had dropped a loose bolt in the motor (only softer).

[maetriques]

by the way...it went away goin down hill and on the flats.

[steveh]

Sounds like a ping to me. What grade gas, and what is the base timing at?

[maetriques]

using 91 octo... I set the initial timing at 12 degrees which should have given me somewhere between 34 to 36 total degrees timing @ 2000rpm.

[steveh]

Are you using a computer controlled stock dizzy? 12 is a lot when 5 is the spec. I see your list says it's a LC item.

I set my base at 8, with the jumper to bypass the comp. I won't do much fine tuning until I get 5 or 6k on on it. Then with Tim's assistance, we will go at the fine tunning.

If your pinging, you need to back down the timing until it stops.

Get a timing light with an advance knob, so you can measure the total advance easily.

[AZALyota]

Yep, sounds like pinging. Bump up a a couple octane points, and set your ignition timing back to stock spec. Was your engine temp creeping up when this was happening?

[maetriques]

Yuppers I'm using the LC pro dizzy....just read on their site that initial could be set @ 10 (while jumpered)...street aps to 12. I have some octane booster I'll run as a troubleshoot. If that doesn't work, I'll back the timing off a bit.

Yup temps were creeping when this happened, but my temps tend to creep a bit anyways I noticed (underdrive pullies and flex fan). Can't wait until I get my oil cooler installed

[maetriques]

wow...5 is stock spec? I probably should just bring it down anyways then. LC says that their dizzies produce about 20 - 22 degrees of mechanical timing advance at 2k rpm. I didnt think setting it at 12 would be that far off, just goes to show ya...have to tune each motor on its own merits and not by catalog numbers eh?

[AZALyota]

Are you trying to run a carb distributor on a 22RE?? There's no mechanical advance on the EFI one. Ignition timing is handled by the computer. Hence the post by dcg9381 above.

It's a tweak for the carb setup to run a distributor with less mechanical advance and run more base timing. You can't do that with EFI.

Especially in the summertime in Phoenix you should drop your timing back to stock and let the ECU figure it out. It will self-learn to give as much timing as possible while avoiding pinging. You'll feel a little less power under 2500rpm, but your pistons will last longer without the pinging.