Abs - R.i.p.

[SeaRover]

ok . . . this time, after doing the search

it looks like if i use '87 front calipers i have to swap to non-vented and thinner rotors. i see mike ordered up willwoods to keep the newer style calipers and used a single split line to the rears and an aftermarket fr/rr proportioning valve

now, from what I could tell mike you (he) used a disco MC instead of an early RR unit. what's the advantage here? I would rather have the 5-channel unit that ron was speaking of, but don't know about the cost differences.

so i'll need . . . .

· new MC (RR girling/lockheed or disco? )
· new booster to match MC
· aftermarket fr calipers if i keep my stock rotors or:
· new rotors/calipers
· potentially some new lines.

what else??

thanks again (and sorry for not searching earlier)

-isaac

[road1will]

wait so do you not have ABS and want it? or have ABS and dont want it?

if you want it, then i have to question why? it is great on a wet road and all put off road it sucks, others will agree here im sure.

if you have it and dont want it, then just pull the fuse in the fuse panel.

[SeaRover]

>>if you have it and dont want it, then just pull the fuse in the fuse panel.

time now for you to do the search 9V

sorry i wasn't clearer in my post; i have a '91 RRC, and the pump is fried. I don't want the ABS; i've been waiting for it to die.

i'm starting to think i'd be better off finding a full diff w/ rotors out of an '87 RRC.

and you can't pull the "fuse" on the RRC system - it's fully hydraulic, and not pass-through like the Disco's ABS system is. So no pump = no brakes, except the manual power circuit going to the front rotors (which doesn't give you damn little).

[road1will]

oh, ok i misunderstood.

i havent looked into this, but i am unclear as to why you need to replace the front calipers?

why isnt it possible to just fit a master cyl and such from an earlier rangie?

[redrangie]

up to 92's were available without abs. Check rover canibal or others for some parts.

I would never put used brake parts on, but a thought for you anyway.

You can also bolt on everything for the master from an early year or from a defender. You should be able to keep your calipers as the caliper bolt spacing (distance from knuckle to pad) doesn't change.

I like the redundancy of the 89 systems, but it's a pain to bleed.

Unless you are doing towing or riding your brakes down big mountains, vented is not really an issue.

j

[JSBriggs]

Isaac,

The Early RR stuff (well at least my 1980, and 1987) had a 5 line system. The only potential trickery that I see is the change from standard to metric fittings, and Im not sure when that was. That being said, you should be able to swap a non-ABS master cylinder in and utilize your existing calipers and rotors.

***disclaimer*** while I havent done this yet, my Abs pump has been doing funny things lately, and I plan on swaping the MC out of the 87 when the time comes. Now keep in mind I have to get the thing running first! long story but 'maybe this spring' is my standard answer for any automotive related work.

-Jeff

[Serious One]

I think RedRangie is wrong actually. I believe ALL RR's after '89 (with the possible exception of the Hunter) had ABS.

That said, I used the MC from a Disco because that's what I already had. I purchased the MC and the vaccum from a wrecker as part of the entire brake hangar/mc/vaccum assembly. Had to replace the MC anyway because it was a leaker.

You have to modify the dual-circuit calipers into a single-circuit because the non-ABS trucks dont have a return line.

You'll need a T-fitting both at the front and at the back axle. You can re-use some of the plumbing, but I found it easier to take everything out and start from scratch. The lines to the rear are the exception, you can choose to use only one, follow it to the rear, put a T-fitting off of that and run new lines to each caliper.

Personally I'd do this scenario if my goal was to have vented rotors witn no ABS.

Use a pair of ABS calipers, modify them to single-circuit and use the vented rotors. Personally I don't have a problem with used calipers, heck the ones I've been rebuilding are used, once theyre rebuilt they're as good as new. Unless they are terribly corroded, there seems little difference from used calipers that are my own vs. used calipers from a reputible wrecking yard.

Good luck! Here's a pic.

PS It's all for sale.

One last edit:

I think we may have had the lines plumbed backwards. I think that the reason I wanted a proportioning valve was because the rears were engaging as much as the fronts, when I wanted a little moore braking 'oomph' from the front.

The line you see at the front of the m/c goes to the rear of the truck, and was one of the stock lines. The lines that are in the artistic curves were changed from metric to standard fittings at the m/c and are for the front axle.

Ok, one MORE edit:

I was talking to Matthew at BCB about the weak pedal I was feeling and he said that the pedal hangar assy. for the non-ABS trucks is different than the ABS trucks. I do have the entire pedal hangar assy. from the Disco I got all of the other parts off of, and when I do the conversion next time I'll be sure to use that instead of re-using the existing ABS-equipped truck's pedal hangars.

One more thing to think of, but imagine life w/out ABS!

[redrangie]

Originally posted by Serious One
I think RedRangie is wrong actually. I believe ALL RR's after '89 (with the possible exception of the Hunter) had ABS.


PS It's all for sale.

Don't be so sure.... I have seen and driven two.

j

[Serious One]

Wow, really???

That's pretty cool. Wish I would have known that when I was shopping around.

What year's were they? Wonder if they were Hunters.

Now you have me VERY curious.

Sorry to say 'YOU WERE WRONG'.

[road1will]

Originally posted by Serious One
Sorry to say 'YOU WERE WRONG'.

if im john lee then you must be brian bonner!

[untrakdrover]

ok, lets up the ante a bit. I have a disco and want to get rid of the abs all together! how and what do I need to plumb this? Just a non abs disco master cylinder?

[SeaRover]

josh buddy you the best of all worlds there - as I understand it you can just pull the fuse and live happily ever after.

uncoupling that ABS ecu from the rest of the electronics to get the dash to stop flashing at you is the problem. other than that, the Disco's ABS system is completely pass-through.

pull the plug and get those CV's in there, dammit!

p.s. i hear you might be up for a bit o trailin this weekend?? i might be able to get out for a bit on sunday morning. it's a long shot with my brakes out of commission.

[SeaRover]

. . . and you too 9V

so the question then is how to machine and rebuild my front calipers. Thx for the tips Jeff - I'm liking this more and more. I will keep you appraised of how the swap goes for you to follow suit on your '90.

Mike, I'd take you up on the MC but I already have a line on an brand new early RRC setup for a pretty good price. I'd rather stay with the 5 channel rangie system, and if I can keep my vented fronts that's all the better.

So I'm reading your post hear Mike, and I'm thinking "hhmmmmmmm . . . . CUTTERS!!!" alas, this is probably pointless, but if I were to give in to shipfitters, those little levers could work magic in a tight spot on open diffs, and help me stay true to my sleeper goals.

CV's: does keeping the vented fronts and stock swivel ball housings prohibit me from running a Suffix A CV's?

the early rrc 10spline/23-spline CV vs. D110 24spline stuff is a debate I will leave for later (and for more searching).

thanks again for the responses - Ron, if you're out there I'm waiting for you to pipe up as well

cheers,

isaac

[redrangie]

Originally posted by Serious One
Wow, really???

That's pretty cool. Wish I would have known that when I was shopping around.

What year's were they? Wonder if they were Hunters.

Now you have me VERY curious.

Sorry to say 'YOU WERE WRONG'.

I might still be wrong. I might be just blowing smoke, or I might be a loser.

We used to call them "factory cars" in some circles. However, they may have been "special orders" Colorado has quite the assortment of weird RR's.

I have seen two brooklands here.

As for the ditching abs on a new rig, yes the non gems run a separate ecu for the abs. But if you don't mind the lights, yes all you need is a non-abs master, or just disable the pump on the unit.

j

[redrangie]

Originally posted by SeaRover
. . . and you too 9V

so the question then is how to machine and rebuild my front calipers. Thx for the tips Jeff - I'm liking this more and more. I will keep you appraised of how the swap goes for you to follow suit on your '90.


CV's: does keeping the vented fronts and stock swivel ball housings prohibit me from running a Suffix A CV's?

the early rrc 10spline/23-spline CV vs. D110 24spline stuff is a debate I will leave for later (and for more searching).

cheers,

isaac

Well, unless you have severe pitting or corrosion on the cylinder bores, leave them alone. And whatever you do, don't separate the rear calipers, or any other lucas/girling caliper! They don't sell replacement seals for the o - rings (that I know of) and they will always leak. (usually)

Just make sure to lube you caliper slides really well with a very high temp grease or specialized caliper lube and you will be fine.

my usual worthless .02

j

[evilfij]

read my previous posts.

Use the 5 channel MC from an 88-89 RRC

No need to swap front rotors or calipers, just replumb the back to a single T fitting and run new brake pipes as you need.

Ron

[SeaRover]

so what is the difference between the lucas/girling compnoents?
and why not '87 (or prior)

also, can I just block off the "top" hole in the fr calipers with a bolt?

i'm assuming of the five channels, two run to each front caliper, and then a single line powers the rears.

[JSBriggs]

The non abs five line system is a dual circuit mastercylinder. One circuit goes to the front (2 lines), and the second circuit is split front and rear (2 lines to the front, 1 line to the rear, then tee's at the rear axel).

I have the 1970-85 workshop manual if you want me to fax or take a pic of the diagrams.

-Jeff

[Serious One]

You can just plug off one of those holes, BUT unless you create a passage from one of the pots to the other pot, you are only going to be using 2 pistons rather than the 4 available.

The ABS system runs 2 lines to each caliper (why I don't know), but each line goes to one pair of pistons. If you ran a T fitting at each caliper and ran two lines (one to each fitting), you would be pushing fluid to both pair of pistons.

Rather than add complexity and more fittings to leak, we decided a long time ago to modify the caliper so that you would be able to run a single line to each caliper and have both pairs of pistons working.

[evilfij]

87 would work fine but it is not lucas girling (the actual cut off is vague some 87s had lucas girling some 88s had lockheed) so availability of the booster/pedal would be limited.

If you want 89 style you can buy a disco I booster/pedal assembly and buy a new MC for it. It is real easy when you think about it. No need to drill calipers, plug stuff etc. Bolt on, get a few new lines and go with it.

Ron

[Kaan]

In 1992, price of RR shot up @10K...this is because of new stereo heated seats etc. So they offered a "stripped down" version in for the "non-County" models. Still leater, but non-ABS, no fancy new seats, no heated seats. etc.....The rest of the non-ABS models post 89 were hunters....

I have a 90 ABS that I "supplemented" w/ 92' non-County. 4 lines up front liek ABS circuit.....The rear only has one....And the brake lines are all female on non-ABS....

www.DELRC.com

[HandBuilt]

Danger - Thread hijack in progress...

Hey Kaan, nice to see you joined up. You probably don't remember me from winter romp 2 years ago. I was driving the POS beige 109 that got stuck everywhere. I mena Everywhere. The one with the broken the leaf spring and exhaust. Shall I go on?

Will you be at Winter Romp? I'll still be driving the POS rover, only it's on 36s and it's green. Oh yeah, and these tires have tread on them.

J-L

[redrangie]

Kaan,

welcome

Thank you for articulating what I was trying to say. We have a buttload of those trucks here in colorado. They used them as the "entry level" since there was no disco here then. I just couldn't remember the details. (I was mired in the Porsche world at that time).

j

[Serious One]

Wow, that's news to me about the '92's. I would guess that the release of those trucks was perhaps regional? Kind of like Toyota had the all-trac Camry's in the Rockies?

I've never seen one of those '92's before, actually never even heard about them. Too bad there weren't any LWB's offered without ABS.

[DieLucas!]

Originally posted by Serious One
Wow, that's news to me about the '92's. I would guess that the release of those trucks was perhaps regional? Kind of like Toyota had the all-trac Camry's in the Rockies?

I've never seen one of those '92's before, actually never even heard about them. Too bad there weren't any LWB's offered without ABS.

An All-Trac Camry...? Now that has to be rare! I know the All-Trac Celica was a pretty rare beast...I'll have to keep my eyes open for that elusive family sedan now!

BTW, the All-Trac Celica and the 2nd generation MR2 turbos shared the same crank and block....the same crank and block that TRD used in their Pikes Peak hill-climb car around the same years. Very capable of taking enough boost to put out 900 HP Just some info for any motorheads seeking a new project!