I've read about best deep snow tires for probably over 5 hours. The overwelming concensus is that Iroks are the best deep snow tires and boggers suck. But a lot of people say unless you have the power to turn the boggers fast enough. So, what kind of setup hp and gearing on say a 1 ton jeep do you need to make boggers better than iroks? Are we talking 450hp with 2.72 case and 537 gears or are we talking insane 1000hp vehicles?
1. Wheeling. Anywhere from 1 to 3 feet of snow ranging from powder to hard and drifted. Just driving around in the woods and meadows. I guess I would be more concerned with full throttle performance than finessing around.
2. Snow racing/snow bogging. You have a strech of open field with 1 to 3 feet of snow and you see who can drive through it in a straight line further and faster.
Im not much of a snow wheeler, but I run 35" BOGGERs on my Ranger. Getting about 425 out of the Stroker, and I havent ever had any problems spinning them. I just got some 36" IROC's in today, so I dont have anything to relate to yet. I run a C-6, so Im losing some to the tranny as well (stock Dana 20 and 4:56 gears).
The 54" boggers are almost nothing like the hard ass 44s and smaller you guys are used to. They are pretty thin and flatten out very well. I'm sure an irok in the same size would be awesome, but the 54s dominate the 49s big time, in deep snow. There are a few guys with them up here. No one with the ttc claws, though.
Specific to your question-I run 39.5 Irocs on my Samurai with a stock 4.3 Vortec/TH350/geared Toy case and 5.29s.
We had over 3' of snow on the ground for much of March. The 4.3 had enough nut about 90% of the time. When the snow got really wet it struggled a little to pull third gear on hills breaking trail, but all things considered it was fine. I had a smaller set of Boggers on another rig and I didn't like them in the snow.
54" aside; the sidewalls are stiff (do not air down as low or well as other tires), they lack lateral grip (do not handle side hills as well as other tires) and they tend to dig.
That said, I ran some bald ass (maybe 1/4" of tread) 35" boggers back in the day that did all all right. Not great, but I could follow well enough. The 54's are just huge, seem to have a softer sidewall that bags and flexes well, the tread depth ratio is not that deep and they have some lateral siping in the lugs.
So I already have bastardized "mud bogger" 44's. This is the way I got them and would gladly trade them for some 39.5 TSL's but have had no luck. If I want to get the most out of them for snow....groove them like this?
Love my 38x11 boggers, some of my friends have tried wide boggers and just didn't work. But they always end up putting me out front to break first tracks when the going is tough, they other guys that I wheel with are running 39.5 and 42 iroks and lots of other size tires size 35 and up.
Nice shot of your Grand Claybuilt the snow looks great for wheeling. We too have many smaller 4x4's (mostly Jeeps) wheeling in deep snow on tires less then 40" tall. It is possible with the right snow conditions and terrain (not to steep) to find success.
My old XJ on the original 37" MTR at 2psi with a vehicle weight well under 4,000lbs. worked very well breaking trail in snow well over 4'+ deep.
I believe vehicle weight along with a tires footprint when aired down is key, as that is what dictates a vehicles flotation ie. pounds per square inch to the ground; saying that bead-locks along with tread pattern and tire rubber compound are all apart of the whole equation among other things. But if slow going is what your doing then power/torque are the least of concerns as many a four banger can turn 35"+ tires in snow w/o issue since idling or slightly more RPM can often work best to keep up forward momentum in the deep white stuff, however snow conditions will dictate what works as said conditions can really make a huge difference in a vehicles performance..
Living near Kelowna BC Canada and knowing a few of the big tire guys (44"+) what really seems to make the most difference besides a very large and wide tire in no particular order is lots of tire siping & grooving (particularly with Boggers and almost any other tire except Iroks), keeping the vehicles weight as low as possible (we've got guys running big blocks, 44"+ tires and one ton axles well under 5,000lbs.), finally gobs and gobs of torque (almost everyone using a 44"+ tire runs a big block and the bigger the better with some running up to 600+ cubes) for the high speed fun runs. Of course I can't forget how important bead-locks are cause most everyone playing in the powder is running very, very low single digit air pressures (1Psi. to 4Psi.) with some measuring their pressures down to a 1/2Psi. or even 1/4lb. total PSI.
I've been told by one of the best in the snow up here that torque rules over horsepower when getting the vehicle moving in deep powder, where getting up on top of the snow and running fast (like 50MPH+) is what it's all about. Often times the snow is 6' to 12' deep, but the big tired rigs only sink in about 6 to 10 inches (depending on snow conditions).
Back before the bigger Iroks (42"/49") became available it was the 44" Bogger the ruled our Okanagan powder (and before that it was the 44" TSL back in the eighties). Then more recently (say 2000+) the boys switched to 46" M/T's Claws and now some run the 49" Iroks and 54" Boggers with a few on 54" M/T TTC Claws (however all are siped and grooved significantly and are running on very wide wheels, like 12"-16" wide).
I say groove your Boggers big time and run 'em hard and if your not satisfied lighten your 4x4 add more torque/power or go bigger with the next set of tires, cause ultimately flotation is what it's all about when the snow is very deep. You don't need really low gearing (most serious big tired snow wheelers are running manual trannies an NP205 2 to 1 T-case and a 4.56 to 5.57 R/P ratio) or mega power/torque just to play in the powder and have fun, well at least until you have to drive up a steep hill LOL.
I would try to make two horizontal 3/16" to 1/4" wide passes per lug that are shallow rather than one single deep pass. For lateral traction, I'd add two 1/2" wide deeper passes per lug that are with the direction of rotation, evenly spaced. I wouldn't run them during the summer unless you're in sand because the lugs are going to chunk after this.
Having second thoughts weather you'll be able to fit two horizontal passes on bogger lugs.... might not be wide enough. From what I know, grooving like this works best with low to moderate wheel speed, for holding traction and eliminating wheel spin. If you're looking at doing holeshots and spinning the shit out of the tires, the biggest improvement would be dropping to lower single digit air pressure.... grooving might not aid much
Everyone I've snow wheeled with that tried boggers quickly fell to the back and looked like amateurs.... they all run iroks now and constantly battle at the front of the pack.
I have wheels rocks a few times and with the grooving it rips the lugs off so bad on my boggers. I just got back from Moab and they help up good on the slick rock but not the best tire for moab. still fun and I wish I had the money to try all the tires I dream of!!! Its all for fun and I love all my my building and testing out in Gods beautiful creation! I really want to sell the grand and build a new wheeler, if only money grew on trees
Definitely, snow conditions are a huge factor to finding traction and flotation in the white stuff.
When you say most tires can do well I agree too.
From my experience it appears that running very low air pressure (single digit pressures) can make a big difference, other then the snow conditions and of course driver experience.
We once did a comparison of a tires footprint and it's growth when airing down to lesser air pressures (tire tread was painted and lowered down onto a piece of paper with full vehicle weight then tire print on paper was measured again and again at multiple air pressures).
This was done on a basic daily driver/weekend wheeler TJ build wearing a popular radial M/T tire.
It was quite astonishing to realize that the footprints increase made from 30Psi. down top 10Psi. (about a 50% increase in the treads footprint), was met again by lowering air pressures from 10Psi. to 5Psi. (about a 105% increase in total footprint from 30Psi. (or an increase of approximately 55% reducing from 10Psi. to 5Psi.).
Then a percentage of approximately 60% was gained again by lowering to 2Psi. from the previous 5Psi. (equaling a 165% total increase from the original 30Psi.) and this time the large increase of the treads footprint was only made from dropping pressure by 3Psi. (from 5Psi. to 2Psi.). (Take note that this was with a very flexible radial tire.)
This is where we stopped, but I believe the gains still keep coming the lower you go. However this has to be countered by the loss of ground clearance, risk of sidewall damage and/or risk of losing a tire bead etc.
No doubt bead-locks are another aspect that can be of great benefit when wanting the maximum flotation from your tires.
Yes, we've played with pressures too and one friend even did a bunch of calculations for different tire sizes, vehicle weights and resultant ground pressure. We've found that decreasing air pressure makes a huge improvement up until the sidewall begins to fold on itself. Once the tire folds, it no longer spins true and rotates with an oscillating pattern. Not such a big deal on wet, packed snow but not good in the soft stuff. I usually start at 5 psi on a good snow run and adjust for conditions and altitude.
I agree 100%. I always watch the track your tire leaves,once it starts leaving a hump in the middle of the tread you went to low. Tire should be leaving a nice uniform track when working right.
^Its interesting you mention your friend making numerous calculations about different tires, vehicle weights and ground pressures as I've also played around with that some.
It's was an attempt to understand what sized tire would be needed on a lighter weight 4x4 (approx. 3,500lbs.) that would offer similar flotation performance to the larger tired trucks (44"+ and 4,500lbs to 6,000lbs..) that locally dominate with their superior flotation in snow.
Funny note is my daughter studied to understand and used this info. to do very well in a middle school regional science fair a couple years back. The science teachers were very impressed with the originality of here work (they had never seen a presentation on this subject before). It basically discussed/demonstrated how we four wheelers use extremely low air pressures in our tires to work like the effect one gets from using snow shoes when traversing snow.
Regarding all those calculations it became very apparent that running a wider tire has as much better ability for increasing a vehicles flotation (not with standing all the factors of tire carcass flexibility etc.). Meaning a wide 38" tire can be more effective then a narrower 42" tire (regarding only the scenario of a larger footprint providing the tires are similar in design).
They seem soft and I have wheeled rocks a few times and they chunk the lugs bad but haven't had a flat yet, did slice one in a mud bog that had who knows what in it. But than again I just cut a sidewall on a 22.5 tire on my forestry truck, that sucked hearing 105psi leave your tire in 2sec.
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