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Old 03-03-2009, 02:24 PM   #1 (permalink)
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A question for southern

I asked this before but was in another thread and you might not have seen it, please southern or affiliates reply with your thoughts.
I want to ask a couple questions to any of the 4wd groups Southern or affiliates, but it is in no way a slam against any of you. I thank you for all that you do and for giving us a voice and mean that sincerly. Can anyone name one time when these groups have moved into an area and we have been able to defend our wheeling areas succesfully. I personally cant think of any I have heard. And if the srea has remained opened how much was lost or how much did we give up? My idea is to spend the money filing class action lawsuits against selc and tu and the like for business and revenue loss for people like crawfords or tellico cabins who will be greatly affected. If we start helping business in these areas sue the dickheads you would likely see some slack in their line. Also I think the money should be spent closing areas for fish rejuvination and regrowth. This be nice,polite,friendly bullshit is not how the world works and has not a thing to do with us winning or losing on any case. We never even get to say anything. My attitude is that "It is what it is" and say it how it needs to be said. If we dont change the gameplan and quick we wont have a chance. If the forest service dont know how to take care of the land ,that has been used for years like it has been used, they need to give it up. Also I would like to see southern file suit and try to put a lean on the land for their years of efforts at their expense. If companies like cabellas see they are closing business up in ares they are screwing with they may run out of money. If you remember the biggest response we got, or at least from waht I remember was when we were calling cabellas and others complaining about tu. I bought a bunch of unserarmor in december and returned it when I found they fund tu. Then wrote the company with receipt copies for purchase and refund explaining the lies and bs tu spews.
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Old 03-03-2009, 04:10 PM   #2 (permalink)
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OK, so I am responding. And I won't lie, it's hard to be successful in this type of fight. But it is possible. Frankly, we haven't fought the right way for most of the areas that we've lost here in the east. The places I can think of are Anderson Creek and Rich Mountain...and we lost.

But this, this is different. We have been engaged, we have been paying attention, and we have been working to provide information that will refute their findings. We also have attorneys and have shown that we will file suit if we feel it is the right thing to do.

So now we need some time to work on our strategy. Suggestions like yours do not fall on deaf ears. We will consider any and all options that are presented to us. But if we don't choose to implement them, don't flame us. Y'all have to trust in the fact that we will do whatever we can with whatever we have to fight this.

On that note, boy....we could use some MONEY. http://www.sfwda.org/trails/tellico/donate.html
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Old 03-03-2009, 06:33 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Thats all I keep hearing is Money.The lawsuit is put on hold,Tellico is closed,Theres nothing we can do right now but right letters ,The Caliber assessment is paid for( I suppose) but we need more money.I dont get it.
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Old 03-03-2009, 07:35 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Thats all I keep hearing is Money.The lawsuit is put on hold,Tellico is closed,Theres nothing we can do right now but right letters ,The Caliber assessment is paid for( I suppose) but we need more money.I dont get it.
I do. Lawyers.
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Old 03-04-2009, 04:13 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I do. Lawyers.


And that is why we need to combine forces with other groups...power in numbers!
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Old 03-04-2009, 04:50 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Heather, please dont take me wrong. I am grateful for all you do and will continue to give to help. Im not bitchin about money or how it gets spent I know from the amount of time I have spent there you NC people are honest and helpful, its one of the reasons I went. Go to Moab and cut a tire and see all the people just drive by and not even ask if your ok, dont even roll their window down. Ask in Moab about a trail and most say i cant help you even though I been coming 15 years go to the blm office and get a book, I never have seen anything like it. In Tellico cut a tire and every swingin dick and tight lip is floppin in the mud to help you. Not everyone but the people from the area probably 75 percent of em. Ask about a trail your thinking about running and next thing they change their plans and take you. Its a fuckin shame, im bout to ball..
I met Mr. Crawford on guardrail back in the day my first time up and he took me up it and hellicopter and down schoolbus showing me the lines. I returned the favor when he was in the real truck challenge by schooling him on how I think he should run the lines because I live at the Badlands ,its only 30 minutes away for me. I know your genuine and just have some ideas, I couls pm them but I figure hell maybee someone will read it and spark an idea in their head. Here are 2 to consider. Have you contacted sema and asked for legal help. They stop the clunker bill everyyear and are powerful. They have also fought when last year the gov wanted to ban brush guard sales for trucks and stopped it. This will effect the aftermarket parts sales after all. Also, and Im not all the way up to date on this but in Moab they have made laws where existing trails cant be closed even if they sell the public property. Now lions back and dump bump didnt qualify because they were not trails. Maybee something to consider maybe not. Im not sure on how this law works but its there. Thanks
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Old 03-04-2009, 12:24 PM   #7 (permalink)
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SEMA and other aftermarket vendors are great ideas. I'll make sure they make it to the fund raisers in the group! And thanks for the kind words about folks in these parts. I agree, they really are top knotch!
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Old 03-04-2009, 02:10 PM   #8 (permalink)
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what about every damn vendor on pirate and why was this not thought of before? i remember seeing that posed sevral months ago when southern was proposing there suit. if tu is so heavilly funded and politicly backed this should have been the first course of action...
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Old 03-05-2009, 10:08 AM   #9 (permalink)
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SEMA and other aftermarket vendors are great ideas. I'll make sure they make it to the fund raisers in the group! And thanks for the kind words about folks in these parts. I agree, they really are top knotch!
I've been wondering when they might get involved. Interco, BFG, Maxxis, Rubicon Express, 4 Wheel Parts, Quadratec, Warn, Goodyear, Skyjacker, Pro Comp, Superlift, Rancho, Currie, etc. There must be some of these guys that want to help. Maybe they actually are and we don't know it, sure would be nice to see them if they are.

What about the local guys who compete. Can they talk to their sponsors? I'm just trying to think of ways to get more involved.
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Old 03-07-2009, 12:57 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I wrote a post during a night of insomnia after a few hours of reading posts in the Tellico section
/forum/land-use-issues/766461-trail-jacked.html

I'll blather some more, talk is cheap since there are no attoneys here.

There seems to be a lot of emotional energy for doing something and that is great thing. Wish there was the level of interest on some of the lesser known left coast closures!

I work in legal/technical research and became an observer of land use disputes mostly the past couple years (IP litigation - same federal courts but "mo' money, mo' fun" for the $$$ eating shark machines).

I think the correct approach to land use litigation is to have the loaded litigation gun on the table but never,ever pick it up except to put it away. Unfortunately bluffing never works, it better be a really expensive impressive gun and you better be a dead shot with it - the point is not to go there but have them understand you can go there AND be effective.

What should be done is address the concerns of the regulatory agencies (people) involved. It is not about soil and trout - it is about Forest Service directives. The soil and trout are the language being spoken and we must answer using that language. If you get through this then another language may be spoken and we'll have to speak that one too. Talk first - then have to do and then do more.

Litigation has uses if the regulatory process is not adhered to. No land use or enviromental group can afford a litigation war. It has to be done on a tactical basis with severe cost controls. No one sitting at the table wants litigation - especialy the Forest Service (even though if the omnibus goes through they get litigation funding). Also, risking a federal judge ruling can be bad even for the person that "wins" - you never know and the old adage is true that "bad cases make bad law".

An approach could be there has to be land use people at the table that represent a large enough group of people where the FS is going to believe that solutions to the "monkey du jour" on their back is going to be dealt with. The FS is also going to have to believe they would rather have you help with the monkey rather than you become the gorilla in the room (litigation et. al.).

The ONLY chance of pulling this off is to organize and use established land use groups. Looks to me like SFWDA will have to be the ones to go to the table with help from BRC and UFWDA. Unless someone here has money coming out of their ears and has $100K+ for an attorney downpayment? (emphasis on downpayment, it won't last long) And if you did have that kind of money - then why isn't it going towards erosion control instead?
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Old 03-07-2009, 05:39 AM   #11 (permalink)
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What should be done is address the concerns of the regulatory agencies (people) involved. It is not about soil and trout - it is about Forest Service directives. The soil and trout are the language being spoken and we must answer using that language. If you get through this then another language may be spoken and we'll have to speak that one too. Talk first - then have to do and then do more.
This is the best part
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